The Pope & Atrocity

[Gray]

Originally Posted by Clark Griswold

So, none of these dictators harmed Christians of various stripes or any other people who subscribed to "the opiate of the masses"?

"Freeing" people FROM religion never resulted in persecutions including false imprisonment, the seizing of personal land and property, and even death?
That's news to me.

Yes, of course they did. And yes, of course it has.

However, even in Stalin's case, the main objective was not the promotion of their atheist views. Whether the reasons were political, material or egotistical, they were not primarily religious.

Terrible things done in the name of religion, are done in the name of religion.

[Just Me]

Originally Posted by Gray

Yes, of course they did. And yes, of course it has.

However, even in Stalin's case, the main objective was not the promotion of their atheist views. Whether the reasons were political, material or egotistical, they were not primarily religious.

Terrible things done in the name of religion, are done in the name of religion.

I think the terrible things done in the name of religion were done for many reasons other than religion and the cloak of religion served a couple or five purposes.

Mankind is a greedy and selfish bunch. They'll use whatever tool is at hand to further their own ends. Mostly power, money and ego.

[Someday]

Terrible things done in the name of religion, are done in the name of religion.

Were the deeds so often cited by atheists (the Crusades, etc.) primarily religious in nature, or did their root causes stem from other factors such as economics, nationalism, and territorial expansion - as many experts in the field suggest? Or is the truth somewhere in between?

For example, the Spanish Inquisition.(established in 1481) Were the Spanish natives not finishing up one of the longest wars in history to reconquer their homeland from Moorish occupation? (AD 711-1492) Did the Muslim Turks not control Macedonia, most of Greece, a portion of the Austrian Empire, Bosnia, Serbia, Bulgaria and Montenegro? Was Constantinople itself conquered by the Muslim Turks(AD 1453), effectively overthrowing the Byzantine Empire? Were the new rulers of Spain not paranoid that the same would happen to them and that non Christians within their new kingdom would aid that invasion? Or was this simply an act of religious intolerance? I think it was more about national identity and maintaining the throne more than anything else.

[Gray]

Mankind is a greedy and selfish bunch. They'll use whatever tool is at hand to further their own ends. Mostly power, money and ego.

Were the deeds so often cited by atheists (the Crusades, etc.) primarily religious in nature, or did their root causes stem from other factors such as economics, nationalism, and territorial expansion - as many experts in the field suggest? Or is the truth somewhere in between?

Okay, point(s) taken.

Still, it goes to show that religion cannot claim any moral higher ground, with this sort of track record.

[Clark Griswold]

Originally Posted by Gray

Okay, point(s) taken.

Still, it goes to show that religion cannot claim any moral higher ground, with this sort of track record.

Neither can you personally, if all we concentrate on is the bad things you have done over the course of your life, Gray.
That's the trouble with you guys.
You constantly harp at Christians to look at the bad things done by Christians or their supposed leaders, yet you never seem to cede the point that it's absolutely impossible to count that good that Christians do in the name of Christ each and every hour of each and every day.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, but where's the logic and critical thinking in this oh so typical atheist approach to describing religion and the religious--especially the Christian manifestations of religious belief?
Honestly, it's pretty dumb.

[Commodore Angryy]

Originally Posted by Clark Griswold

Neither can you personally, if all we concentrate on is the bad things you have done over the course of your life, Gray.
That's the trouble with you guys.
You constantly harp at Christians to look at the bad things done by Christians or their supposed leaders, yet you never seem to cede the point that it's absolutely impossible to count that good that Christians do in the name of Christ each and every hour of each and every day.

What about the good things Atheists have done, how often do you recognise that?

[Gray]

Still, it goes to show that religion cannot claim any moral higher ground, with this sort of track record.

Originally Posted by Clark Griswold

Neither can you personally, if all we concentrate on is the bad things you have done over the course of your life, Gray.
That's the trouble with you guys.
You constantly harp at Christians to look at the bad things done by Christians or their supposed leaders, yet you never seem to cede the point that it's absolutely impossible to count that good that Christians do in the name of Christ each and every hour of each and every day.

But I never have claimed that, Clark. I don't consider anything I've ever done to be really bad, however I know that any Christian worth their salt would disagree. If that's not moral superiority, what is?

The reason we ask you to look at the bad things is because of the pointlessness of aligning yourself with a leader, supposedly so loving, yet so capable of revenge and vindictiveness. As I've said in your other thread, yes, Christians do a lot of good things. But so do the rest of us - there's nothing special about it.

[Just Me]

Originally Posted by Gray

Okay, point(s) taken.

Still, it goes to show that religion cannot claim any moral higher ground, with this sort of track record.

Ah, but see, that's just it.

I know I'm abnormal in my thoughts but to me religion is man trying to reach God. Christianity is God reaching down to man. Whole different perspective.

"Religion" is a man-made mess.

[billinjackson]

Originally Posted by paul watts

ATROCITY:
Hitler has been thoroughly condemned
by the world for murdering six million
Jews during the Second World War.
This holocaust is frequently talked about
even today, and many books have been
written on this subject condemning Hitler
and his associates.

THE GREATEST ATROCITY:
During the Dark Ages the Catholic
Church slaughtered over 150 million
Christians, and this atrocity is never
mentioned today!
The world has almost completely forgotten the many
millions of people who were burned
at the stake by the papacy because they
wanted to worship God according to the Bible.

FROM HISTORY:
A secular history book declares:
“That the Church of Rome has shed more
innocent blood than any other institution
that has ever existed among mankind,
will be questioned by no Protestant who
has a competent knowledge of history.”
— W. E. H. Lecky, History of the
Rise and Influence of the Spirit of
Rationalism in Europe.

THE PRESENT POPE'S CONNECTION:
His “Holiness” Pope Benedict XVI member of the Hitler Youth and as such an "associate" (and lackey) of Hitler is therefore responsible in part for The Holocaust, and as leader of the Roman Church he is answerable for the atrocities committed by this Church in the dark ages.

This connection ties together the atrocities committed by the Nazi in the twentieth century and the Roman Church in The Dark Ages.

(url edited out, not enough posts and only in sig )

This is compliments of Dutch reformers and a propaganda campaign... Read about the Black Myth which is researched by secular scholars today.

In this, I a assume you are talking about the Inquisition and the Cathars, who were NOT Christian but practiced ritualistic suicide among other things.

Paul, you have to stop reading Fundamentalist tracts... Please do your due diligence and question everything by reading multiple sources, especially the documents and legal records of that time - remember, the inquisition was a legal/religious affair.

Bill

[Sazzy]

Hello Bill Not seen you in a LONG while!