Jesus:apocalyptic Prophet Of The New Millennium

[JM]

A new book I am going to have a read of, I think it touches pretty much on a number of things that were covered in Gods Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question as Gods problem was written a while after Jesus:apocalyptic Prophet Of The New Millennium

As in Gods problem he explores

The Classical View of Suffering provided by Old Testament
The Apocalyptic View of Suffering provided by New Testament
Various other outside views

And how the answers provided are still provided today

While I dont ascribe to the same choice concerning God that Bart does at the end of the Book Gods problem, I do not rule out his choice as a valid opinion among many opinions.

I will update here my thoughts on this other book though after reading it.

In the meantime here is a book review i came across about it, its worth a read

Book Review by Anthony Campbell: Jesus, apocalyptic prophet of the New Testament, by Bart D.Ehrman

[Someday]

I only read the review, and this part I agree with. This idea is not new at all. It's been around for a thousand years in one form or another. For example, the early Papacy is based on this sort of stuff. The work done through Peter in the book of Acts strongly recalls God’s work through Jesus. Peter is Jesus’ heir. The Pope is Peter's heir. All Kingdom on Earth sort of stuff. Not exactly the way this reviewer is portraying it, but nevertheless, based on the same initial principles.

The rest of the bits about Jesus not being the Son of Man etc etc. It's also been done time and time again over the last 2000 years. I am going to resist commenting on any of this since I have not read the book. Perhaps there is some new evidence I am not aware of.

Blessings

[JM]

Well as really their is next to no proof Jesus was THE son of God

I would say opinions about Who Jesus was

Is up for review

[JM]

I would recommend people listen or read Barts book on " Gods problem " as their is one portion in it that pretty much explains why people think Jesus death on the cross was to take sin away, and how it comes from part of the teaching of the jewish people regarding suffering



Personally.. I see a lot of it as one illusion built on the next all stemming back from several things

God Needing Something

God Failing to be able to get it

God apparently seperating us from him because we have not given it to God

God still needing it so much that he still requires Us to give it to God

God willing to Destory people if they do not Meet Gods Requirements

Oh and God winning some of the battle but losing some to some imaginery guy with a pitch fork.. LOL



Its hard for me now to comprehend that I bought into such ludicrousy.

[Someday]

Personally.. I see a lot of it as one illusion built on the next all stemming back from several things

God Needing Something

God Failing to be able to get it

God apparently seperating us from him because we have not given it to God

God still needing it so much that he still requires Us to give it to God

God willing to Destory people if they do not Meet Gods Requirements

Oh and God winning some of the battle but losing some to some imaginery guy with a pitch fork.. LOL

I happen to agree that what you are saying here is true. God does not need anything. That's what I have basically been trying to say all along. I quick reading of Job will reveal that Satan is not God's adversary, he is God's servant. He is our adversary, but not for the purpose many imagine. He ain't stealing souls from God. He is God's creation and has been called "that old serpent whom is a liar from the beginning". In another place it is written of God as saying to his servants "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.". This is so that we can partake of the tree of knowledge of good AND evil. A choice we made long ago. In this way, Satan's role is to refine us in the refiner's fire.

I think it's funny when I hear people sing certain hymns such as "God is in Control", but deep down, they don't really believe it because someone taught them that this being Lucifer rebelled against God and is dragging mankind into hell with him to get even for losing a supposed heavenly battle. And yet.....God is just losing these souls. Sure, in the end, a few might get raptured, but the majority of mankind will follow the devil into a fiery torment that shall last forever and ever. So God will save a few souls and they will all rejoice as the rest are endlessly tormented. Some victory.

Sorry, that's the kind of "biblical scholarship" and belief system that made me agnostic and very anti Christian to begin with. It was when I got away from listening to what other people told me the Bible said and studied the thing for myself that those false teachings became exposed for what they are. False. It was even further proven false when I began studying the early Christian writings from before there was a collection of New Testament books, and when I began to study rabbinic literature from the same time period. None of these writers would recognize the Christianity we are practicing today.

Jon, we agree on some things, but I think it is for different reasons. You are drifting towards where I was 25 years ago. I kind of like what Grace had to say about Bart in the Gods Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question thread. She is a pretty wise lady. I believe she nailed Bart's journey right on the head.

Blessings

[Grace]

Originally Posted by JM

Its hard for me now to comprehend that I bought into such ludicrousy.

It's all part of your journey, Jon....don't you know you'd still be believing in substitutionary atonement had God not planned for you to grow in the knowledge of the truth?

There are logical reasons---mainly cultural, geographical, and political---that played a big part in why western theology created dogmatic doctrine from metaphors and parables.

I know you don't need me to say this, but I'm gonna anyhow because I care about you. Be sure to use discernment when reading Bart's stuff---digest the facts, but spit out the bones of biased and bitter opinions.
Bart, and me, and you, all of us are still learning....hopefully one day soon Bart will catch up with you & me---LOL!

I've linked to these articles before...but they're always good to reread---and it's always good training for the mind to view the same facts presented by authors with differing biases.

River of Fire

atonement.html

ETA one more...a must read, IMNSHO:

whydie.html

[Grace]

Originally Posted by Someday

Jon, we agree on some things, but I think it is for different reasons. You are drifting towards where I was 25 years ago. I kind of like what Grace had to say about Bart in the Gods Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question thread. She is a pretty wise lady. I believe she nailed Bart's journey right on the head.

Thank you, someday...but yikes! To be honest, any semblance of wisdom I might have accumulated sprang from learning lessons the hard way...but, I don't dwell on my numerous mistakes because the older I get, the more I'm coming to realize that God knows the best way to drag each of us to Him.

[JM]

Originally Posted by Grace

It's all part of your journey, Jon....don't you know you'd still be believing in substitutionary atonement had God not planned for you to grow in the knowledge of the truth?

There are logical reasons---mainly cultural, geographical, and political---that played a big part in why western theology created dogmatic doctrine from metaphors and parables.

I know you don't need me to say this, but I'm gonna anyhow because I care about you. Be sure to use discernment when reading Bart's stuff---digest the facts, but spit out the bones of biased and bitter opinions.
Bart, and me, and you, all of us are still learning....hopefully one day soon Bart will catch up with you & me---LOL!

I've linked to these articles before...but they're always good to reread---and it's always good training for the mind to view the same facts presented by authors with differing biases.

River of Fire

atonement.html

ETA one more...a must read, IMNSHO:

whydie.html

Thank you for your feedback and care.. and yes.. I would still be believing in substitutionary atonement if but for questioning

Some may feel to attribute this to God by saying God planned it.. and Wether God planned it, or I chose it really doesnt matter only to those who find the act of creation only something God does, and assuming we are seperate from the creation process

Truth which is true for me, maybe not truth which is truth for others..

people are entitled to believe in substutionary atonement..

As for bart..I view every book created by man the same with

" With a pinch of salt " yet at the same time " Revealing "

This includes bart erhman, lee strobel, and the bible itself.

As I said above I dont ascribe to the same conclusion that Bart does concerning God

He classes himself an Agnostic.. not sure wether their is or isnt a God but if there is... in his mind its not the God portrayed by Christianity.

My beliefs on God have changed over the years, yet I believe in God.. but I do not give weight to that " belief ' in itself matters to God, though some would argue that. As without using that as the difining point, the line in the sand drawn.. the differences between person A and person B would be blurred.

Christianity in its varied forms, traditional, really non traditional and even universalism

Would likely disagree with " belief " not being used as the determing factor of if a person is accepted or not accepted by god... .. theirs would be that it does matter, but this is because of the intital seed that many have been taught and embraced concerning assumed Seperation from God and God needing of which that is a contradiction itself.

What I do like about Barts books vs other scholar books that I have read though at this time is his manner in which he presents, digs deep into areas which most christians dont look into, think they already know, or disregard.

Again though.. he is a man like any others ( bible authors ) and capable of being torn by biased views and hurt experienced.

For me, I accepted the Christian Gospel very easily and only years later got around to really doing my own research, this came through attending a bible college for 2 years and personal study.

As one lie or contradictions is exposed, another surfaces.. and then another is left to be questioned.. in questioning that.. slowly by slowly... the layers of what is fact and fiction begin to be seen.. which then takes you on to the next..

You then begin to slowly dismantle it all like an engine in a car, looking at each part..

Some parts are burnt, some have holes in them.. one part only exists because the one below it exists..

Much of christianity exists because the initial seed planted is one of Fear and mixture of Doubt

The only thing that can grow from that is more of the same

What the years have done since the seed went in.. is to dress it up a little bit more nicely and present it in various packages

But open the package and dive deep and what is considered loyalty to God is fear, misunderstanding, assumption, doubt... and people unsure of who they would be if they no longer accepted what they had been taught or had learned was possibly true.

So for as for discernment, every person is using discernment, just we think some arent because their accepted views dont match our own. Yet they are discerning what they can for the stage they are at, and what they feel they can handle.

The Rabbit Hole goes pretty deep and the surface seems so much more comfortable and safe

So yes I agree we all appear to be learning or possibly "remembering" what we always knew deep down

[JM]

Originally Posted by Grace

Thank you, someday...but yikes! To be honest, any semblance of wisdom I might have accumulated sprang from learning lessons the hard way...but, I don't dwell on my numerous mistakes because the older I get, the more I'm coming to realize that God knows the best way to drag each of us to Him.

Dragging a person back to God... this I have heard in the Universalism teaching. How can life drag life back to itself?

[JM]

Originally Posted by Someday

Jon, we agree on some things, but I think it is for different reasons. You are drifting towards where I was 25 years ago. I kind of like what Grace had to say about Bart in the Gods Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question thread. She is a pretty wise lady. I believe she nailed Bart's journey right on the head.

Blessings

Dont you mean, you " think " i am drifting towards similar views to which you held 25 years ago

You mentioned your views were " agnostic and very anti Christian "

If we are being specific here... I have mentioned that I hold a belief of God, so being an Agnostic wouldn't be a view I hold.

I have mentioned also that a person is entitled to believe in " substitutionary atonement ".. but how do we define anti? someone who speaks differently to the christian views instead of remains silent on views about God and Humanity?

Or someone who holds campaigns to harm christians?