[friendly hardline atheist]

Hello Someday,

Originally Posted by Someday

This is to this day officially accepted for further research by the Vatican. It has never seen it's endorsement retracted.
CBHD: Production of Pluripotent Stem Cells by Oocyte Assisted Reprogramming
If you have information about this that I do not have, I would welcome you to share it with me.

The new info is in what the Vatican newspaper reported from bishop Girotti. I was unpersuaded by the 3 year old Wired article, I am equally unpersuaded by another link about the same thing that again predates the new 7 sins statement by 3 years.
If you had something about OAR that, like the GM food link, dates from after the announcement of the 7 new deadly sins, that would help persuade me further that they are not against all genetic manipulation.

Originally Posted by Someday

I believed we were discussing mixing the DNA in regards to creating embryos, not other uses in medicine. Few in the modern world are against doing this for vaccines for example.

I think you'd do better to stop wriggling on this one, as you do not appear to be doing yourself any favours. I think you went wrong when you said 'They are against killing what they consider a human in order to learn from it, and they are against mixing human genes with animal genes.'. The example of human DNA from skin cells being implanted into a cow egg doesn't involve mixing DNA as you yourself said, bringing up the mixing of other human-animal tissue was moving the goal posts from your original position, and then bringing in viable human embryos out of nowhere an erroneous diversion, as far as I can see.

Originally Posted by Someday

I'm sure you are aware that this is a media created event? Since when are Vatican pronouncements issued by archbishops in an interview about confession? Essentially, the media latched onto the thoughts of one man during a convention of clergy where the purpose was confession. The media's behavior reminds me of this joke. Sensationalism sells.

What is the Vatican's take on this? You can read it here.

Earlier on you linked to an article about what three UK and Irish bishops had said to the press as indication that the RC church is not against all genetic manipulation (when your article was actually not about genetic manipulation at all, but adult stem cell research). So it is ok to use what UK bishops tell reporters to determine the Catholic position, but not to go by an interview with a Vatican bishop reported in the Vatican newspaper? In what appears to be a repeat of those different criteria, again involving the UK, who exactly was speaking at that episcopal conference of England and Wales that is mentioned in your new link? An official representative of the Vatican? Or was it perhaps some of the same UK bishops who had already tried to limit the damage with their £25000 pr stunt? I can't tell from the Zenit article.

Originally Posted by Someday

Essentially, I believe you to be a free thinker. I have shown you that there is reason to doubt that the Vatican is against all genetic manipulation. I wonder why the blanket statement against drug use isn't equally attacked by the medical industry? From the comments made by this archbishop, one could easily infer that any medical use of drugs is a deadly sin. Yet......no one has jumped on that part at all. Why do you believe this is the case? There is little difference between the two after all. He did not calrify EXACTLY what was bad drug use and what was good drug use. We must infer that any and all use of drugs must be stopped. Do you see the parallel?

Oh please. Yes, with that GM food article you have persuaded me a bit that the Vatican position on genetic manipulation is not 100% opposed. You're not growing that appreciation with the drug analogy, which I think is a bit silly. Everyone knows what the bishop meant when he mentioned drugs. The same is not true if you mention genetic manipulation to people (I'd say some of the points where you were struggling in this thread are a good demonstration of how that issue is less clear).

Originally Posted by Someday

Seek truth, make up your own mind. Don't base your opinion on media sensationalism and Dawkins.net style misinformation, but on facts. If you want to know what Catholics think about genetics, talk to catholics, read their material, not what others tell you they think.

Sorry?! In all your posts in this thread I've come across exactly one bit that I found persuasive. Next to what I would say is a number of errors. With that in mind, I do not accept your criticism that I should get my facts sorted out.

Oh, and I talk to some Catholics by the way. Like my family, who are mostly Catholics. And some collegues from Ireland at work. That's not a huge number of them. But of those few of whom I know their position, they profess to a 'That is interfering in nature' stance. Some of them (that is unfortunately, some of the Catholics in my family) I wouldn't class as extremely bright. While you state you are not a Catholic, you'd be well ahead of them in terms of knowing the issues surrounding stem cell research, genetic manipulation etc from a Catholic party line point of view. They don't look up articles etc to immerse themselves in it even just a tiny bit deeper. They would probably not even object to me portraying things black-white if I criticized the Vatican for being opposed to all genetic manipulation. Instead they would staunchly defend what they also think represents the party line. It almost makes the fine details of the Vatican position irrelevant, as the damage is done. Fortunately, the damage is limited. If you knew them, you'd probably agree with me that they will not be particularly effective in persuading others of their views or ever influencing decision making any further than that they vote for a Dutch christian party.

greets,
Peter