If we do not forgive?

[surrendersacrifice]

If we do not forgive we be forgiven(Matt 6:14-15)? Jesus, by His actions and teaching tells us what it means to forgive.

In the Old covenant people lived by the laws that were written on stone (2 Cor. 3:7). They, therefore, followed the letter of the law. It was, therefore, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth (Lv. 24:20). In the New Covenant, we live by the Spirit, because the Spirit of God is imprinted on our fleshy hearts (2 Cor. 3:3). Therefore, the Spirit of God, which is unconditional love, is our heart’s desire. We are, therefore, (Matt. 5: 39-40; Luke 6: 30; Matt. 5: 44) to fight back evil with love; help those who hurt us; give to everyone who asks and do not demand back what others have taken from us; love our enemies; and pray for those persecute us. Jesus showed us that to truly love and forgive, is not only to give up resentment or claim we have against our offenders, but also to compensate for their wrongdoings. Jesus did not sue or abandon those who hurt and killed Him. He offered them salvation by dying on the cross. He, thus, offered the other cheek. We have only two choices, to live like Jesus did or to reject His life.

God always offers us forgiveness. We have to accept it by believing in it. And to believe in it is to forgive others the way God forgives us.

[Someday]

Forgiving others is one of Jesus main messages. When Peter asked Jesus if one should forgive a trespasser 7 times, he was being very liberal compared to the teaching at the time. It was taught to forgive someone three times in those days. So Peter was shwing a move in the right direction. But not far enough. Jesus corrected him and told him "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times". In other words, stop counting.

Then in Mathew 18:21-35, Jesus tells about the King that forgives a man 10,ooo Talents who in turn fails to forgive a fellow servant that owed him a mere 100 Denari. When the king learns of this, he revoked his original forgiveness toward the man that owed him the huge sum of 10,000 Talents and imprisons him untill every talent is paid.

The lesson is this. God forgives us. We are in turn expected to forgive each other. If we want forgiveness for each of our trespasses, then we must forgive each and every trespass against us.

Failure to do so nullifies God's forgiveness of our own transgression, and we may be imprisoned until we pay the whole price. (not eternally)

Blessings

and we may be imprisoned until we pay the whole price

I'd like to pursue your line of thought regarding penalty for not believing. You say there is no hell, but that the unforgiven will be imprisoned. For how long? Does one murder = a lifetime of other crimes? Does only the sin of unbelief in Christ negate a life of otherwise righteousness and good deeds? How long do Hitlers and Stalins stand in the corner?

(I'm about to leave on a trip, but I'll eventually get back to ya.)

[Someday]

You misunderstand me.

I don't say there is no Hell, I say that anything that might or might not resemble what men call Hell is not eternal. In other words, once the debt is paid, however long it might take, your stay there is over, just as it reads in the parable I was discussing.

Personally, I believe that since there actually is scriptural and historical evidence from the early Christians of some sort of purgatory, I lean towards the existence of purgatory, but not Hell. I believe Purgatory was invented in order to reconcile scripture with the Augustinian doctrine of eternal torment. Since there was scriptural evidence that there was a temporary state of purification, they had to invent a third "place" to cover those scriptures, or else their doctrine of Hell falls apart.

Simply put, Purgatory is actually the real Hell.

Blessings

Can I assume that you believe that Satan and his demon-followers will remain in an eternal Hell or will they be forgiven too in your "theology"?

[Commodore Angryy]

Originally Posted by NCAngelFire

Can I assume that you believe that Satan and his demon-followers will remain in an eternal Hell or will they be forgiven too in your "theology"?

You forget, God loves all MAN. To hell with the angels, they only came first, who cares?

[Someday]

Can I assume that you believe that Satan and his demon-followers will remain in an eternal Hell or will they be forgiven too in your "theology"?

Perhaps it would be better for me to quote the early Church Fathers in this regard? I hope you will remember that when it comes to the New Testament writings, these teachers were native Greek speakers. They read these letters and gospels in their mother tongue, completely at ease with idioms and common word usage of the day, unlike us.

"1 John 2:2. 'And not only for our sins,'--that is for those of the faithful, - is the Lord the propitiator, does he say, “but also for the whole world.” He, indeed, saves all; but some [He saves], converting them by punishments; others, however, who follow voluntarily [He saves] with dignity of honour; so “that every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;” that is, angels, men, and souls that before His advent have departed from this temporal life. " --Clement of Alexandria

"...When the Son is said to be subject to the Father, the perfect restoration of the whole of creation is signified, so also, when enemies are said to be subjected to the Son of God, the salvation of the conquered and the restoration of the lost is in that understood to consist." --Origen

“We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet.”

"As men, by giving up their sins, are made subject to him (Christ), so too, the higher intelligences, freed by correction from their willful sins, are made subject to him, on the completion of the dispensation ordered for the salvation of all. God desires to destroy evil, therefore evil is (one) of those things liable to destruction. Now that which is of those things liable to destruction will be destroyed." --Didymus the Blind

We certainly believe, both because of the prevailing opinion, and still more of Scripture teaching, that there exists another world of beings besides, divested of such bodies as ours are, who are opposed to that which is good and are capable of hurting the lives of men, having by an act of will lapsed from the nobler view, and by this revolt from goodness personified in themselves the contrary principle; and this world is what, some say, the Apostle adds to the number of the “things under the earth,” signifying in that passage that when evil shall have been some day annihilated in the long revolutions of the ages, nothing shall be left outside the world of goodness, but that even from those evil spirits shall rise in harmony the confession of Christ’s Lordship--St. Gregory of Nyssa

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome

Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa

The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal. in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus' Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.—Jerome

We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. --Origen

The list goes on.

This is not my theology. Please understand that I am not inventing anything new. This is the original teaching before Augustine single handedly wrecked the Good News with his eternal torture theology.

Blessings

Thanks for all the quotes, Someday, but I still take the straight forward words of Jesus and the apostles before the words of quote/unquote "church fathers". And I take it from the quote by that dude Jerome

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures.

that apparently you do believe Satan will receive redemption also.

Whew! I feel so much better knowing that now. Let's all have a group hug and sing Kumbaya

[JM]

Originally Posted by NCAngelFire

Thanks for all the quotes, Someday, but I still take the straight forward words of Jesus and the apostles before the words of quote/unquote "church fathers". And I take it from the quote by that dude Jerome that apparently you do believe Satan will receive redemption also.

Whew! I feel so much better knowing that now. Let's all have a group hug and sing Kumbaya

Lol NCANGEL im all for going with what " Jesus said " statements... but problem is mate you dont know as like neither does anyone else on this planet.. if what Jesus or the Apostles said is both true or misunderstood..

You are wanting to take it as being more valid than anything anyone else said or recorded by other men

Remember it was Men who wrote the book we have today, Not God but physical man

If you feel that they were inspired thats a belief of yours but not a fundamental truth.. there is a difference there and that is fine

But then its possible that the men Someday are referring to were inspired too

How can you be sure which is correct? How can you be sure which one is more valid?

What if Satan is nothing more than a Figurative..

You are speaking from a place of presumption, hoping that Jesus was what Christianity proclaims Jesus to be, hoping that Jesus said something, hoping that it was heard right, hoping that it was remembered, hoping that it was written down correctly, hoping that it was not changed throughout all the times the bible was translated

Thats a whole whack of presumption with little evidence

Its a bit like hoping your going to marry a Hollywood star

Yeah.. dont hold your breath

[Someday]

Thanks for all the quotes, Someday, but I still take the straight forward words of Jesus and the apostles before the words of quote/unquote "church fathers"

So do I NC. It's in there too. Jesus is the one speaking in the parable about the 10,000 talents.

Honestly, my biggest reasons for believing that there is no eternal torment are the words in the Old and New Testaments.

If you choose to believe in eternal torment, that's ok. It doesn't change your own personal salvation. God will likely forgive us each if we are wrong.

Blessings