A question about The Bible - Genesis

Hi all

I'm new to this forum so I'll just lay my cards on the table before I ask a few questions.

I'm a UK atheist so I live in a secular society where it is quite easy to talk about having no religious beliefs without fear of being penalised, as I've heard can be a problem in the US.

I want to ask about Adam & Eve. Do most Christians hold that Adam & Eve were the first people? How important is Genesis to Christians in general? I ask because when I've asked Christians about the Bible in the past they've said that the Old Testament was not as important as the New Testament, and that the Old Testament is full of vengeful wrath of God stuff and The New Testament is more loving, nurturing God stuff.

Thanks

Stratt

[Mycernius]

Hi there Stratt, and first welcome to the forum. I am also an atheist living in the UK, but I will attempt to answer some of your questions.
I find that most liberal christians tend to regard Adam and Eve as a story rather than absolute fact. Your more consevative types will head towards the "of course it was true".
Genesis is an old creation myth that has about as much truth to it as any creation myth from around the world. If you read Genesis you will actually find that Gen 1 differs from Gen 2. Gen 1 mentions that God made human beings, not Adam and then Eve. It also lists animals as being made first. Gen 2is the origin of Adam and Eve and differs on the creation order of things. The reason is that the two myths come from different traditions, one a priestly tradition and the other a more oral tradition. What is also interesting is that in the original hebrew the name Elohim is used for God. this is a plural in hebrew and should read gods, not God.
As for the NT taking precedent over the OT you'll find quotes that support this and others that don't.
I have to go out soon so I will try to expand on this later, or maybe JM or Someday will help.

Hi Mycernius

Thanks for the reply, but what I'm really after is not so much the academic explanation of what Genesis and the creation myths are; I've got something of a grasp of those already. I really want to know how some actual Christians will answer. I'm trying to get a feel for the true Christian mindset and their ideas of how their religion started, what it's foundation is based on etc, and not what we as atheists ascribe to them.

As you know, our assumptions about Christians and Christian dogma, however logical, can differ entirely from Christians' own beliefs and how they live up to their idea of what God expects.

Thanks

Stratt

[JM]

Originally Posted by stratt

Hi all

I'm new to this forum so I'll just lay my cards on the table before I ask a few questions.

I'm a UK atheist so I live in a secular society where it is quite easy to talk about having no religious beliefs without fear of being penalised, as I've heard can be a problem in the US.

I want to ask about Adam & Eve. Do most Christians hold that Adam & Eve were the first people? How important is Genesis to Christians in general? I ask because when I've asked Christians about the Bible in the past they've said that the Old Testament was not as important as the New Testament, and that the Old Testament is full of vengeful wrath of God stuff and The New Testament is more loving, nurturing God stuff.

Thanks

Stratt

Hi Stratt haven been a christian for 17 years I'll add my take on the Various views.. as there is various views making it even more less credible

Some take Adam and Eve Literally
Some take Adam and Eve as mans attempts to grasp existence, taken the only 2 forms of people that are on the planet, man and women and working from there

As for the old testament and new testament

The old Testament is kind of the grand daddy of the Jewish Religion - Judaism which is where Judeo Christianity came out of and now is just referred to as Christianity

There are multiple teachings on the whole old and new, their relation and such.. a lot of stuff is taken from the old to attempt to support the new and a lot from the new to attempt to support today

Some agree with it 100% literally, Some dont at all, Some are a bit of both.. Basically it doesnt take long to realize that Traditonal and Liberal christianity today is one mixed up religion with offshoots to which fundamentalists reject

Just as Islam has its own offshoots to which they reject..

Now their clearly is a difference between the God of the Old and the New yet... while most Christians try to promote a God of Love.. when it really comes down to it, and I mean the rubber hits the road... Love goes out the window and what really is seen is a Fear Based Religion, one that is based in Punishment and Reward.. determined by Grace, Believe and toeing the line with God and others.

It is like many other Religions... has its good and beneficial parts to its teachings and bad and non beneficial parts to it.

Most people think if a person rejects christianity and what is commonly taught.. they have rejected God

Because they cannot fathom that outside of the Christian Boundaries and teaching God can be experienced or be known at least...in a way similar to theirs.

The foundations are based on Judaic theology... and suffering

I recommend a book worth reading, the guy is no longer a Self Proclaimed Christian ( I use the word self proclaimed as all Christians are Self Proclaimed ) but he is a New Testament Scholar and many of his text books are used in Christian Theological colleges still.. book is " Gods Problem : How the Bible Fails to answer our biggest question : Suffering - Bart Ehrman

It really does way more than cover another answer to Suffering, it takes you right through from start to today where the christian belief came from, the ideas and changes that occured due to things not happening and happening.. background on key figures and how they shaped what is so easily accepted today as being Truth

Hope that helps

[Someday]

Genesis is a selection of Parables that, unfortunately, are often thought to be historical truth. This historical aspect is one that has been accepted and rejected by mainstream Christianity over the past 1700 years, but careful study of the Church Fathers, before the times of Constantine and the hijacking of Christianity into a state religion, one will get the idea of a different understanding of the Book of Genesis.

Once it's parabolic element is lost, it becomes a thin and watery collection of stories with little meaning. Then, as Jon noted, many will fail to understand things such as suffering and evil at all. They become "problems" for God. They are problems for us, not God. Even the Bible recognizes that God created evil and He had a purpose, and that purpose was to refine mankind who willingly accepted and pursued purification through the trials of knowing good and evil. Many Jews and early Christians alike have noted that we all emanate from that original Adam. We are not his descendants, we are all collectively Adam. Adam simply means man. Nothing more. Interestingly, even modern Jews believe that upon death, we all return to Gan Eden. That is, the Garden of Eden, or the final stage of Olam Haba. Early Christians had various names for it, but the idea is the same.

Of course, real history means nothing if you are forced to treat Genesis as actual history. Then you must reject real documented Judeo-Christian history.

I could write on this subject for days, but this is a forum, not a blog. Hope that tiny bit helps.

Blessings

Hi all

Thanks for the replies so far. It's all very interesting stuff but talking about the foundations of religion in a historical context from an objective viewpoint doesn't really get into the areas I'm keen to explore. I had a conversation a few years ago with a programmer colleague and I mentioned evolution and dinosaurs, and he snorted with derision. I asked him what he believed and he said God created Adam and Eve and that evolution was a load of rubbish. I hadn't realised he was a Christian so I asked him a few questions about The Bible that he obviously had no answers for (I suspect I knew more about it than he did) so he said he didn't want to dwell on the past and dropped it.

As I said in a previous post we can talk 'til we're blue in the face from an academic viewpoint but none of it has any relevance to the views of the average Christian; people such as my partner's devout Irish Catholic parents for example, they don't study their religion from any objective viewpoint, they go to church on a regular basis and to Lourdes and Fatima and Medjugorje. They have their truth so they don't need to explore anything else. It's these kind of faithful and their ideas of what The Bible is that I want to understand.

Perhaps those kinds of Christians have no need to come on here. Why would they want to?

Cheers

Stratt

[JM]

Originally Posted by stratt

Hi all

Thanks for the replies so far. It's all very interesting stuff but talking about the foundations of religion in a historical context from an objective viewpoint doesn't really get into the areas I'm keen to explore. I had a conversation a few years ago with a programmer colleague and I mentioned evolution and dinosaurs, and he snorted with derision. I asked him what he believed and he said God created Adam and Eve and that evolution was a load of rubbish. I hadn't realised he was a Christian so I asked him a few questions about The Bible that he obviously had no answers for (I suspect I knew more about it than he did) so he said he didn't want to dwell on the past and dropped it.

As I said in a previous post we can talk 'til we're blue in the face from an academic viewpoint but none of it has any relevance to the views of the average Christian; people such as my partner's devout Irish Catholic parents for example, they don't study their religion from any objective viewpoint, they go to church on a regular basis and to Lourdes and Fatima and Medjugorje. They have their truth so they don't need to explore anything else. It's these kind of faithful and their ideas of what The Bible is that I want to understand.

Perhaps those kinds of Christians have no need to come on here. Why would they want to?

Cheers

Stratt

Most Christians dont explore their religion from an objective point your correct there.

They are only taught from the bible and most I would probably say 90% of the christian population on the earth hasn't even researched that.. the way a scholar would

Its a religion of assumptions

[Someday]

They are only taught from the bible and most I would probably say 90% of the christian population on the earth hasn't even researched that.. the way a scholar would

Just to play devils advocate here......Please understand that I absolutely believe in the process of evolution but where did I learn this? How much research have I done on my own? Zero. All that I know of it was through the work of other people. I sincerely believe a very large portion of evolutionists never took the time to research it for themselves.....as a scholar would.
Does this mean I, the average Joe, do not explore my evolutionary beliefs from an objective viewpoint the same way the average Christian does not explore their religion?
Are we not being condescending here? Are we somehow better than they? Why? I'm not better than anyone. The fact that I research my faith more deeply than many desire to is not going to get me into heaven any faster.
I think I shall have to stop believing in evolution if this is the standard we must now apply to everything.

Blessings

[JM]

Originally Posted by Someday

Just to play devils advocate here......Please understand that I absolutely believe in the process of evolution but where did I learn this? How much research have I done on my own? Zero. All that I know of it was through the work of other people. I sincerely believe a very large portion of evolutionists never took the time to research it for themselves.....as a scholar would.
Does this mean I, the average Joe, do not explore my evolutionary beliefs from an objective viewpoint the same way the average Christian does not explore their religion?
Are we not being condescending here? Are we somehow better than they? Why? I'm not better than anyone. The fact that I research my faith more deeply than many desire to is not going to get me into heaven any faster.
I think I shall have to stop believing in evolution if this is the standard we must now apply to everything.

Blessings

I am not saying anyone is better than anyone. To even read into what I was saying as being , Better or not Better is one of the problems that faces people today concerning Faith. It is what has led people to declare what is absolute for all and not just for themselves.

I am merely submitting that most Christians based on their conversations and books reveal the depth of their research into the other side of the coin, which without the otherside of the coin.. their own belief would not make much sense.

The majority of people who accept Christianity as a religion for themselves usually have not given much thought to it and even those who have.. have come to a conclusion based on evidence presented only by Christians

Its like someone deciding that a Dell Computer is the only true computer, because Dell people gave them a Dell manual that said " Only true Computer " on it..

When push comes to shove regarding questions, they refer back to their dell computer manual which of course provides dell computer answers, that logically make sense as they were written by Dell computer enthusiasts

I.e The Bible was not written by a Muslim, Hindu, or a New Age Person, and so the view that is being given and accepted is only one portion of the pie and within that portion of the pie it appears to make sense when looked at from only one view

But add in new views, interpretations, pie portions and now things become shaky and so all other pie pieces and pies are rejected

The funny part of the Christian Religion when you really dive into it, is its relation to the Judaic Religion...

If you go speak with a Jew concerning many of the conclusions and teachings that have been drawn from the Jewish Religion, most Jews write them off..

Now of course Christianity has a reason for that. God has hardened their hearts, they are blind. I mean because if they could see they would see the same thing, right

Christianity today is like an American opening a Chinese Restaurant in the middle of New York and pretending to present truths about the chinese culture when the closest they have come to understanding about China is having watched a jackie chan and chris tucker movie, and bought the odd sweet and sour chicken balls for 4

I never forget visiting a Jewish temple in Portsmouth in England when I was studying at a bible school back in 1992.. Several people had questions for the jewish teacher there, one was regarding the Blood that was placed above the doors when the angel of death came..

A few daring students said.. that represents Jesus blood and how it protects us

The jewish person laughed his head off and said.. You Christians and your fascination with Blood

He went on to explain the real meaning behind it..

Todays Christians are Grasping more and more for ways to support their belief... a good example is the video on " Laminin " this video was just Typical and yet hilarious.. YouTube - Louie Giglio - Laminin

They are seeing Crosses, Blood, and Prophecies in everything... desperately hoping to solidify what they believe before its unraveled

[friendly hardline atheist]

Hi Jon,

Originally Posted by JM

Todays Christians are Grasping more and more for ways to support their belief... a good example is the video on " Laminin " this video was just Typical and yet hilarious.. YouTube - Louie Giglio - Laminin

They are seeing Crosses, Blood, and Prophecies in everything... desperately hoping to solidify what they believe before its unraveled

I'm going to agree with the last part of your post there as warmly as I can. Some christians do indeed have the tendency to explain everything as being in support of or thanks to christianity. Pretty much like the PacMan icon that goes around the computer screen gobbling up everything in it's path. It frequently involves a blissful ignorance of things. And as in the the PacMan game, those bits that don't just let themselves be eaten up (ghosts in the PacMan game, knowledgeable people in real life who aren't too lazy or scared to use their brains) are seen as bad, dangerous, evil.

It's one darn effective way for some christians to make themselves despised.

Peter