Read this - Eye Taken Out

[JM]

I read this and 2 things came to my mind from both parties

1. Projecting on to each other what the other should do
2. Where is God in all of this?

Ill continue after you read...

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A Muslim mob robbed a Christian man of his eye with the help of a dagger and left another Christian man critically injured in village Sabz-kot in sub-division of district Sialkot on February 6.
The incident took place after the Christian residents of the village put up opposition to a couple of Muslim men who used to harass Christian girls on their way home from Church after Sunday services, the Pakistan Christian Post (PCP) has reported.
According to the story, announcements from the village mosques demanded the Muslim residents to teach a lesson to the Christians, who according to the story were referred as "infidels" in the calls from mosques. Most of the semi-literate Muslim clerics frequently use the word "infidel" for Christians and the other religious minorities of the country during their sermons with a view to inflame sentiments of local Muslims.
The story said that the Muslim mob, armed with guns, axes and clubs, attacked the Christian residents of the village. Tension erupted there after two Muslims, who have recently purchased houses in the Christian neighborhood, started claiming the courtyard of the Church as their own property. The story also said that the Muslims in question also threatened to erect a wall in front of the courtyard.
The Christian elders, according to the story, urged the Muslim elders of the village to stop the Muslim youth from drinking liquor publicly and using drugs in the common courtyard.
Mr. Basharat Masih, an elected member of the Union Council also took up the matter with the Muslim leaders but laying claim to the courtyard the Muslims insisted that nobody could stop them from consuming liquor in the courtyard.
Pakistani Christians are allowed to obtain a liquor permit, but a large majority of Pakistani Muslims are defacto consumers of liquor, as most of Pakistani Christians cannot even afford to consume liquor due to their poor-socio-economic conditions.
The Muslim mob in question fired a shot in the air and forced John Masih, a Christian resident of the area, to kneel down. Masih's refusal to obey cost him his eye as an unidentified Muslim dug out his eye with the help of a dagger.
"We will take out eyes of every infidel who shall dare to look straight in our eyes," the PCP quoted one of the Muslims as saying.
Khariat Masih, who advanced to release John from the mob's clutches suffered injuries to his head, abdomen and legs after he was attacked with an axe.
The area Christian Councilor, Basharat Masih, rushed to defuse tension and to prevent attackers but he was brutally beaten with sticks. His mother Salima Bibi fell to save his son Basharat Masih from attackers but she was also dragged by hair in courtyard, said the story.
Later, Muslim mob broke out doors, which have been closed in fear of attack and dragged out children, men, women and elders. In gunfire, mob disgraced women and tortured men before their families, the story said.
The police came after attack and arrested Christians instead to registering any case against the Muslims. The police officials later started inquiry of incident in light of a property dispute between the two groups, the story maintained.
On the intervention of senior officials, John Masih, Khariat Masih, Basharat Masih, Salima Bibi, and three other were admitted in hospital. John Masih and Khariat Masih are said to be in critical condition.


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On one hand a while back I would have said.. maybe something along the lines of


1. Terrible.. see muslims are violent
2. Terrible.. what christians have to suffer for the sake of the gospel
3. I wonder if by not fighting back.. they taught the muslims anything of love?
4. God has his reasons for not intervening and allowing his people to suffer


Now... my thoughts are different...


1. Its not muslims that are violent but people in general, just so happened that muslims and christians were involved
2. Here is the one of the many consequences of trying to project on to each other what the other should do..

3. Did it need to go that far before they could have shown love.. by accepting the guy drinking and taking drugs.. instead of shoeing him away...?
4. Must christians suffer ill fate and harm just so they can walk around with a martyr complex or feel that God loves them even more for suffering for him? I think not..
5... We speak of the Power of God and God intervening.. was he on Holiday when this happened?... Something doesnt add up here.. its one of the many things that dont add up and sit well with me


Other might say.. who are you to question How God goes about things and what he does or doesnt allow..


Do I need to be someone? To misunderstand, not grasp or have expectations of God?


Silly game....

[Mycernius]

According to the story, announcements from the village mosques demanded the Muslim residents to teach a lesson to the Christians, who according to the story were referred as "infidels" in the calls from mosques. Most of the semi-literate Muslim clerics frequently use the word "infidel" for Christians and the other religious minorities of the country during their sermons with a view to inflame sentiments of local Muslims.

(Bold mine). This is the one section that caught my eye. Christians are not infidels according to the Qu'ran, neither are Jews. All three follow the same god, except each book is Gods word tailored for each one.
It proves that semi-literate thugs are using religion just to intimidate a minority. From ignorance comes violence, and this is a good example.
If they can't read or fully understand the Qu'ran then they should be kicked out of the job. You wouldn't really like your teachers at school to be semi-literate, ne?

[JM]

Originally Posted by Mycernius

(Bold mine). This is the one section that caught my eye. Christians are not infidels according to the Qu'ran, neither are Jews. All three follow the same god, except each book is Gods word tailored for each one.
It proves that semi-literate thugs are using religion just to intimidate a minority. From ignorance comes violence, and this is a good example.
If they can't read or fully understand the Qu'ran then they should be kicked out of the job. You wouldn't really like your teachers at school to be semi-literate, ne?

Well the idea they follow the same God is a presumption, many christians and muslims will say there is a big difference in their God and so I can see understand both sides saying the other doesnt serve the same God

[Mycernius]

Modern muslims might say that, but the Qu'ran does say that both Christian, Jews and Muslims follow the same god. Once again it is a case of various theists ignoing what parts of their scriptures say and picking only what they want to excuse their barbarity.
Most atheists do not really have a problem with a general belief in a god, we have a problem in the blinding and dangerous doctrine and dogma of religion and this is a good example of why.

[Someday]

Most atheists do not really have a problem with a general belief in a god, we have a problem in the blinding and dangerous doctrine and dogma of religion

I agree with this fear. Most religions boil down to this simple truth. Do good and avoid evil. We tend to project our own shadows onto those who are different, and this includes some religious leaders who find an excuse to do so from a misunderstanding of their own faith. It would be better for men to examine where our faiths agree instead of where they disagree.
It's ok to debate, to express our own belief, but when it gets beyond a friendly discussion, we should walk away, not allowing our own shadows to be projected onto the other.

Blessings

[JM]

Originally Posted by Someday

I agree with this fear. Most religions boil down to this simple truth. Do good and avoid evil. We tend to project our own shadows onto those who are different, and this includes some religious leaders who find an excuse to do so from a misunderstanding of their own faith. It would be better for men to examine where our faiths agree instead of where they disagree.
It's ok to debate, to express our own belief, but when it gets beyond a friendly discussion, we should walk away, not allowing our own shadows to be projected onto the other.

Blessings

Yep exactly

[friendly hardline atheist]

Hi Mycernius,

There aren't many inter-atheist debates here, this might be a nice time to start one.

Originally Posted by Mycernius

Most atheists do not really have a problem with a general belief in a god, we have a problem in the blinding and dangerous doctrine and dogma of religion and this is a good example of why.

I disagree. I strongly dislike the idea of going on faith. Faith in a god certainly included. This is actually part of my strongest dislike of religion. Why do I feel so strongly against people wallowing in belief? Because it is all too often a catalyst for switching off the brain. Suppose you have something you don't quite understand at first sight. And after some deep thinking you still don't get it. If you then decide to attribute it to some god(s), then what motivation do you have left to think still harder about it and find out? You have the answer, god did it, so what's the point of trying to find out what it is. The answer is there for you, isn't it?

While it may not work this way for all believers, for all too many I see that it does. Faith as a substitute for trying to find out what really is behind it. And terrifyingly, people are happy in that state of mind.
Big cats outrun us, bears are much stronger than us. Owls will see us coming a mile away before we ever see them. Thinking is the only thing we are really better at. A terrible thing to let it go to waste.

So three cheers for skepticism. Hooray for critical questioning, including questioning of those ideas that have been held up high for a long time. And let's not hesitate to throw those ideas out if we find out they have shortcomings and a better idea is available. That leads to progress. Whereas beliefs can be a drag on progress if maintaining that belief becomes a goal in itself. For instance if maintaining the belief requires the refusal to absorb new information or the refusal to ponder difficult questions that the belief can't answer. So screw beliefs, including those in a god.

greets,
Peter

[Mycernius]

I did say a god, not God. I know a few people who belief in a god, but are not bound to that god by religion. Their belief is more a prime mover rather than an all powerful, all seeing, all knowing deity who is a moody as a pregnant woman. They believe in evolution, the big bang and in many ways are almost atheistic when you talk to them. The only difference is they believe that something must have started it all, and that something shows signs of intelligence.
Another thing I have found with the few deists I know is that they are very critical of religion. Some will take it apart with as much anger as a fundie on other religions. Others will look in depth at religion and explore its roots and history. I know one who has a great knowledge of the origins of the bible and will happily go into hebrew texts of varying sources to show that what Jews/Christians believe as the word of God are actually mistakes or mis-translations of the original sources.
It seems that their gods are more personal rather than led by doctrine and a set of rules laid down by men.