If you cannot love an eternal torment god

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by shibboleth

Jonathan Edwards

“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”

The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss.

["The Eternity of Hell Torments" (Sermon), April 1739 & Discourses on Various Important Subjects, 1738]

This is the quote by Edwards taken from the Tentmaker site. I couldn't find this quote in any of Edwards writings, although he did say a few things about little children going to hell. Anyway, he was just as cruel as Calvin in his hatred for "sinners."If you ever run across these quotes in a book or article would you let me know so I can print it on the ET site?

Pretty gross stuff eh!!

I will let you know if I learn where the quotes are located.
Here is what I think about it.

WHAT GOD’S LOVE IS REALLY LIKE

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...godislove.html

The Bible says that God is love. Love is not just one of God’s attributes.

God is not just a loving individual. God is love in essence.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong (Arminian) that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering! Or, they deserve to suffer forever (Calvinist), just because they were born into the human race.

Love Divine
by D. Buchanan

“FROM the lips of love's apostle, exiled for love on Patmos' lonely isle, there sounds out in the saying, "God is Love," the most concise and comprehensive utterance in all language, the most sublime declaration of truth by mortals ever heard. These three one-syllable words reveal the character of God and make it to be known that behind things, as the source and fountain-head from which they spring, there throbs the one great heart of infinite, unchanging love.
Although, to finite understanding, life may meanwhile seem a tangled skein, and providence a confusion, yet when all the processes of Love have run their course, then it will be seen that the history of the ages, the story of the race, can be written with one small word, the term of infinite fullness that tells us what God is.
"God is Light" and "God is Love." Light, in passing through a prism, is separated into its component parts and appears as the seven colors of the rainbow. Each separate shade is a manifestation of light, and, although no one color in itself is light, yet without it light would not be what it is. So, too, the invisible love-light of Deity, passing through the prism of divine providence, appears as mercy, as righteousness, as goodness, as power. The operation of each attribute is a manifestation of love, and although no one quality in itself is love, yet without it, love would not be what it is. As the blue is in contrast to the red in the rainbow hues, so righteousness is to mercy in the spectrum of love. When the mercy manifestation of itself accomplishes God's purpose, then mercy is glad that righteousness was not required, for "mercy rejoiceth against judgment." Yet the heart that moves the mercy hand is the same heart that, if need be, moves the judgment hand, and that heart is God, and God is Love.
God loves just because He is Love, yet Love's hope in loving is to create and call forth love; hence Love's victory is love reciprocated, love returned. So it is that Love, mingling mercy with righteousness, moves ever on, longsuffering and kind, but failing never, until at length the creature heart responds in fullness, to love unbounded and divine.
And when, at length, humanity, redeemed, ransomed, transformed by the divine from which it sprang, has thus taken on the likeness of Love's perfect Man, the Man of Galilee and Golgotha, then Love, the Alpha, will likewise have become the Omega of all things, the atmosphere in which we live and move and have our being, and the universe will be flooded with divine affection.”

Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY

and

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

for the scriptural evidence that God has the desire, ability, and determination to save all fallen creature from everything from which they need to be saved.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/sa...ircularity.htm

[JM]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

God can forgive having had wrong attitudes, but He can't forgive maintaining wrong attitudes. Wrong attitudes MUST CHANGE and they certainly will with or without the lake of fire which is the second death.

THE FALLACY OF "FREE WILL"

Sooner or later God's will superceeds man's stubborn will. Click on

Is Man a Free Moral Agent - J. Preston Eby

Rubbish.. that is what you THINK.. and an assumption on God, Your splitting hairs

MUST CHANGE.. is coming from a place of NEED

[JM]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
rodgertutt

And that is where it comes down to... people thinking the BIBLE is correct or cherry picking what is and what is not.. to progress the agenda of their offshoot of religion

There are hundreds, thousands of interpretations of what God is like.. coming from the Bible and not coming from the bible..

not one if delivered by man will ever be something that can be classed " EXACT " as not one person on this planet can verify it..

So really what your saying is " This is what I think God is exactly like, and there are some that agree, but their are others who disagree, so take it with a pinch of salt "

[JM]

Originally Posted by Someday

No Jon. You are interpreting Grace as a fundamentalist Christian does. I didn't say anything about God being kept appeased. I am not a fundamentalist. The principle of Grace is that God is not hung up on our weaknesses, we are. God requires nothing, we only believe He does.
I have to refer you back to the Garden Parable again. God did not ever care that Adam and Eve were naked, yet they hid in shame. They imagined their own sin. They lived in the Grace of God, yet they put blinders on and artificially hid themselves fruitlessly from God. The illusion of separation is our doing, the illusion of sinning against God is our construct.

Why won't you let me agree with you Jon? Is it because I refer to ancient stories that have illustrated these things already? Is it because you dislike my terminology? Is it because you reject everything you think links you to your past beliefs about the Bible?
Is it bothersome that in the last 20 years of studying the Bible, my conclusions of what the Bible is ultimately saying somewhat coincide with what you began to believe AFTER you rejected the Bible? I don't get it.

I think you misinterpret what I said maybe? I never said God needed atonement. God has always forgiven us. It is we who need to forgive ourselves. Christ crucified give US the ability to forgive ourselves without this endless cycle of atonement and sacrifice.

Blessings

We very well may be getting our lines crossed

... the beauty of misinterpretation.. we all do it, yet somewhere along the lines people have this idea that the people in the bible never did it .. thats the funny part...and part of this threads discussion at least

Mind you the whole Christ gives us the ability to forgive ourselves, again though to me is just another interpretation among the many.. im not saying its not valid.. though I have my doubts about it...

Man has always had ability to forgive.. we are not lacking anything.. just some think we are.

Forgive ourselves for what?

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by JM

And that is where it comes down to... people thinking the BIBLE is correct or cherry picking what is and what is not.. to progress the agenda of their offshoot of religion

There are hundreds, thousands of interpretations of what God is like.. coming from the Bible and not coming from the bible..

not one if delivered by man will ever be something that can be classed " EXACT " as not one person on this planet can verify it..

So really what your saying is " This is what I think God is exactly like, and there are some that agree, but their are others who disagree, so take it with a pinch of salt "

For me the important thing is that for many who were taught, and still believe that the Bible is "the word of God," it comes as a great relief to learn that there is evidence that it does not teach endless torment for anyone. Regardless of which interpretation is true, many Bible believers are not even aware there is an alternate interpretation to make a choice from.

For example, if I had known about the following interpretations of the Bible I could have avoided a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 that was cause by being afraid of a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible...Explained.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/un...-the-bible.htm

[JM]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

For me the important thing is that for many who were taught, and still believe that the Bible is "the word of God," it comes as a great relief to learn that there is evidence that it does not teach endless torment for anyone. Regardless of which interpretation is true, many Bible believers are not even aware there is an alternate interpretation to make a choice from.

For example, if I had known about the following interpretations of the Bible I could have avoided a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 that was cause by being afraid of a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

Bible Threatenings Explained

Universalism is Not in the Bible

Well roger my friend I am with you on that.... a vast amount of Christians need to hear words of Acceptance instead of Fear, Doubt and strings attached.. which is the basis of even the most liberal self proclaiming christian people.

So I like the fact that you get out there.. and tell them an alternative.. what you are doing is a good thing... keep it up..

Its the springboard to many things..

Had you not originally come on this forum about a year ago.. I may not have met Gary who owns tentmaker and talked on the phone. Gary is a good guy and I appreciate that he is out there bridging the gap between the Fundamentalist Christianity and those who are Awakening to see God in a whole new Light.

It is not about creating a new framework to entrap people in, but pulling back the layers on what has been told to people is the absolute truth for everyone and letting people decide for themselves and not using tools of fear, doubt and the words of others in the past to decide for them.

So keep up what your doing Roger... Universalism I believe is a starting place for people to let go of fears, some dont even think they are in fear until they are challenged to stop doing what they have always done... then what is seen has love and devotion is revealed for what it is.

At the end of the day. We are all one, once more realize that a new reason for doing things will take shape and what was once done as a sense of duty will be done with a sense of Joy, Appreciation and Love.

Blessings