If you cannot love an eternal torment god

[rodgertutt]

If you cannot love an eternal torment god (without links)

For the first 500 years of the Christian church, universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine of a large majority of the Christian church. To find the evidence that this is so, type into Google
books prevailing

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language. This online book also explains why and how this changed.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that all of the links referred to but not posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 69 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

You can Google up many similar testimonies by typing in
tentmaker hells fruit (small case letters)

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES (Google it up)

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism Google up
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinistic).

Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved. Google up
lake of fire eby

You can also Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of TENTMAKER (Google it up), and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 69

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle. He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"

You can Google up his answer by typing in ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

[Someday]

Welcome to ITPOG.
I don't think you will find too much argument from the Christians that are here now. Most of us seem to have moved on beyond the Augustinian doctrine of eternal torment, and discovered it for what it is. Those with a view that Augustine was right have for the most part moved on to other forums.

Blessings

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by Someday

Welcome to ITPOG.
I don't think you will find too much argument from the Christians that are here now. Most of us seem to have moved on beyond the Augustinian doctrine of eternal torment, and discovered it for what it is. Those with a view that Augustine was right have for the most part moved on to other forums.

Blessings

THAT IS VERY GOOD NEWS. GLAD TO HEAR IT!!

Just in case anyone here might be interested, here is a link that explains why we believe in universal salvation rather than annihilation.

ETERNAL DEATH (ANNIHILATION)

[shibboleth]

Hi Rodger and welcome to IPOG. When I joined IPOG over a year ago, it was mostly hellfire beliefs. I came right out and stated I believed in UR and was banned at one point. But, a nice friend helped me get reinstated after JM took over and I like the openness of the site.

Anyway, I'm so happy you are here because you have suffered so much because of hellfire doctrine and can help others who are still suffering.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by shibboleth

Hi Rodger and welcome to IPOG. When I joined IPOG over a year ago, it was mostly hellfire beliefs. I came right out and stated I believed in UR and was banned at one point. But, a nice friend helped me get reinstated after JM took over and I like the openness of the site.

Anyway, I'm so happy you are here because you have suffered so much because of hellfire doctrine and can help others who are still suffering.

Can't help wondering what the mod who banned you thinks now. :-)

HOW THE BIBLE TEACHES ALL FALLEN CREATURES WILL LOVE GOD

I wonder if you folk are aware of this great writing?

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE by James Coram (online reading)

Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We

Self-righteous people who want to retain some of the glory for themselves for their trusting in Jesus may reject Jim Coram’s writing about what the Bible teaches.

But people who want to give all the glory to God for their trusting in Jesus as their Savior will greatly enjoy and benefit from Jim’s writing and will recognize it as the truth.

The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it. Each chapter is quite long and comprehensive.

The “danger” in preaching the truth resides only in the imagination of the person who doesn’t understand the truth.

The online book “HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE” by James Coram needs no defense. It stands on its own merit.
It has helped many people. It will help many more.

Most comments and questions regarding this book are responded to within the writing itself, for example, “WHAT ARE CORRECT TRANSLATIONS OF THE BIBLE?”

A frequent response to first learning about the existence of this book is,
“You believe the words of men, but we believe the Bible.”
But the actual reading of, “HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE” by James Coram will prove to all readers that JUST THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE.

IMHO, "HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE" by James Coram is the most powerful of all of the dozens of books that I have read, the hundreds of tapes that I have listened to, and the many online articles that I have read that show that a correctly, (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation. (I am 69 years old)

In fact, to me it is so powerful that it renders all arguments to the contrary completely irrelevant to the truth that it proves that, by the time God’s plan for the ages of time has been consummated, the universal salvation of all sinful creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, most certainly, will have occurred.

It can be read in its entirety online at Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We

Or, it can be Googled up by typing in HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE

It has seventeen chapters, each chapter having its own highlighted heading followed by a short introduction.
Just click on the highlighted heading and the entire text of that chapter will appear.

Since I have read many writings, the sum total of which probably contain every argument in existence in support of the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation, I am confident that if anyone were to read "HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE" in it's entirety, they would change their mind about their belief that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation.

However, as a friend recently reminded me, one must be disposed of the Ultimate Placer to receive any revelation; it’s all about Sovereign causes & effects. Or as Ralph Waldo Emerson put it, “People only see what they are prepared to see.”

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28

Write to me personally at rodgertutt@sympatico.ca

My website is Hope 4 You, Roger Tutt

[JM]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

If you cannot love an eternal torment god (without links)

For the first 500 years of the Christian church, universal salvation was the prevailing doctrine of a large majority of the Christian church. To find the evidence that this is so, type into Google
books prevailing

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language. This online book also explains why and how this changed.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that all of the links referred to but not posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 69 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

You can Google up many similar testimonies by typing in
tentmaker hells fruit (small case letters)

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES (Google it up)

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism Google up
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinistic).

Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved. Google up
lake of fire eby

You can also Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of TENTMAKER (Google it up), and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 69

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle. He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"

You can Google up his answer by typing in ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST

Which view of salvation is true

Answer: The one you choose for in doing so, that is what you will experience

Anyone who wishes to debate that can do so.. but you will need to produce some form of evidence as proof beyond a book or scripture which is meant to be Gods direct Approved view on it.

If I had to recommend to a person where to begin in regards to questioning christianity.. it would be too look at Universalism.. this is a prime example of the differences of opinions and interpretations, yet at least it would help them step away from some of the fear based sense of REQUIREMENT of belief and service to God. Which when you realize your not Required to do so ( without punishment / True free will ) then your view of God will change and what had originally been done because you were told it was a REQUIREMENT ( serve, worship ) will become something done out of Great Joy and Choice. Service to Life ( God, others ) no higher purpose

Universalism though still exists or is experienced in the illusion of a God of Need, and still many who hold to it are attempting to Serve God out of a sense of REQUIREMENT/COMMAND/DUTY..... though at least it begins to pull away some of the fallacies about God. If they dont think they are doing it out of REQUIREMENT, then test yourself.. Stop doing it for a time and see what feelings you begin to have about your not contining to do what you did before. ( you can always come back to doing it again ) but see.. if the reaction/feeling you feel in your self is anything less than still a sense of Love, Joy, Appreciation and Peace that God is still Pleased with you no matter what you are or are not doing.. IF NOT then what you have been doing previously has come out of a sense of Requirement and I might say, even Fear

Yet it stops at Jesus and Sin which is fine

Yet if one thing is called out, you really have to look at the rest of the story that has been given

Universalism rests on that the reason God will not punish non believing people for Sin is because Jesus has dealt with it regardless of peoples belief in Jesus

And if that works for some great..

But for others the reason God does not punish anyone for sin is because their never was Sin to begin with, or seperation and God has no Need

Lets not get mixed up here and assume I am saying that there is not Right and Wrong, though intrinsically there isnt. There is only Cause and Effect, and no cause could create the effect of real seperation from God, as the very substance of Life, time and space is God.. Now thats not to say that No Cause could create an effect which is an Illusion of seperation from God

The seperation that exists in reality is not seperation but an illusion that no longer becomes an illusion when we see it for what it is, which in turn changes our persepective about it, this effects our perception which effects our belief which effects our experience, which effects our reality and the new perspective we now hold.

[Someday]

I personally do not like being labeled a Universalist.
I don't like the way Christianity has been sliced and diced into all these different denominations. I do not consider Universalism as a denomination at all. It makes it sound new and different, when the fact of the matter is, if anyone researches the doctrine of eternal torment they will find that the earliest Christians and the Jews from the same time period did not believe in anything remotely similar to what is being preached about Hell from pulpits today. No one calls them "Universalists".
Quakers do not believe in eternal torment. Must they give up being called Quakers? Jews never believed in eternal torment, not even today. Must they give up being called Jews in favor of Universalists?
People who reject the invented doctrine of eternal torment come from all denominations.
What always amazes me is how people that believe Jesus really is the Saviour of all (like He is reported to be in the Bible) are considered heretics and evil.
When the evidence is put forth that God will have His will be done ( you know, in the bible it says that God wills ALL men to be saved), those who put out the evidence that God shall actually have His will be done are relegated to the fringe and attacked.

At the same times, I have seen how many universalists treat other Christians. Sometimes they accuse them of hoping for endless punishment for disbelievers and sinners. Sometimes they are attacked and belittled in ways that are very hurtful. Instead of explaining our position better, sometimes we take the tactic of accusing fellow Christians of being sadistic or evil for supporting everlasting Hell for the majority of mankind. I don't think most Christians want to see anyone go to Hell. That is a terrible way to treat Christians who happen to believe all of the things about Hell and God's will. When I see people that reject eternal torment use these tactics, I am somewhat saddened. And I have read in some forums that this is the largest complaint against people who argue against eternal torment. They don't accept the message, but what really bothers them is how the message is being delivered. This has caused some forums to ban the topic, not just because of the message, but because of the messengers.

Blessings

[rodgertutt]

JM, you wrote "Universalism rests on that the reason God will not punish non believing people for Sin is because Jesus has dealt with it regardless of peoples belief in Jesus"

THIS IS A GROSS ERROR! Go to the following link and click on LAKE OF FIRE which is the third sub-title down and read why you are so very wrong about that!

The Lake of Fire

Regarding what our attitude towards the unbeliever should be, for me it is summed up very well by the following quote from J. Preston Eby:

""Why preach and teach the Gospel if all are to be saved ultimately? There is no need to witness for they will be saved someday, someway, somewhere - right?" Wrong! First, the Christian life is so rich and beautiful and worthwhile that it would be the only life to live, even if there were no hereafter. Ask those who have truly known and experienced Christ over a period of years. Was it not Dr. A. J. Gordon who met an old crippled man on the street, and asked him why, with all his handicap, his face was nevertheless so bright and shining? And the old man answered, "The devil has no happy old men!"

Furthermore, God will never save your loved ones, your neighbors, or any other person who has ever lived or who ever shall live apart from a means, an instrument through which to reach them. And WE are that instrument! God declares to His elect in Isa. 49:6, "I will also give you for a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation unto the end of the earth." The method by which God causes men to believe is revealed in Rom. 10:14-15. "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? and how shall they BELIEVE in Him of whom they have not HEARD? and how shall they HEAR without a PREACHER? and how shall they PREACH except they be SENT?" Does the salvation of all men negate this procedure? No way! It only intensifies it! The simple truth is that God purposes to save all men. The means by which He shall accomplish this is a people, a royal priesthood, the Sons of God, who are made ONE with the priestly ministry of Jesus the great High Priest, to intercede, witness, speak, exhort, warn, entreat, preach, and proclaim the redemptive power of the Christ until this ministry conquers all men for God.

Ah - does the fact that God will have all men to be saved mean that it is meaningless to WITNESS, to PREACH? A thousand times no! "It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:21). So we cannot preach less, we must not witness less, armed now with the hope that the preaching will ultimately BEAR FRUIT we shall preach more than ever before, for this is one of God's MEANS of salvation! Those who should really give up witnessing to their loved ones, and preaching to the lost are those who believe most of them will burn for ever in hell anyway! What on earth could be more worthless, unprofitable, vain, disturbing and disappointing than witnessing and preaching to men when we actually believe that only a small fraction of them will ever be saved? Why bother? To what end all the labor? The devil gets most of them in the end anyhow!

We who know that God will have all men to be saved are really the only people on earth who have real purpose in ministering to the lost. Praise God! He has committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation. Now comes the word: "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: We pray you in Christ's stead, be reconciled unto God." (11 Cor. 5:18-20).

The apostle shows how it is that God was in Christ reconciling-- not the church, not the saints, not just believers, but the WORLD unto Himself, and now has given the ministry by which this reconciliation is to be effected---unto US! "We pray you in Christ's stead." Not witness to our loved ones because they will be saved anyway? Not preach to the unconverted because they will be saved in the end? The very idea is absurd, a complete contradiction of terms! Because God has made blessed provision for their salvation IS WHY WE WITNESS! On the contrary, to witness and witness and witness to vast numbers of people who will never be saved would be an effort in futility. If I believed that nonsense, then I really might stop preaching!

Will believing that God is the Saviour of all men do away with evangelistic fervor and zeal? Only in men who hold a carnal knowledge of the doctrine in their intellect, but have no deep revelation of the truth of it in their hearts. It did not affect the apostle Paul in this manner. On the contrary it increased his fervor and zeal. Paul states it clearly and emphatically, "For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (I Tim. 4:10). After many years of ministry, being, by the grace of God, an instrument of God to help a great many people in the deep spiritual, psychical, and physical needs of their lives, I testify that I know of no greater joy on earth than the joy of seeing people receive Christ as their own Saviour and Lord. Just ask anyone who has led some person to the Lord, what is the greatest joy he knows. He will not be slow in telling you. Or try it yourself!

The fact that we see and appreciate God's great and wonderful plan for all men leaves no room in us for a dilatory, DON'T CARE spirit. The elect of God are always conscious of their unique calling. We are given the high honor of being "laborers together with God." Some day when the last devil has been subjected, and the last sinner broken in humility and contrition at the lovely feet of Jesus, we shall realize, as we may not now, just how great that honor really is, and how much we have missed if we fail to share in this task to which the Almighty has set His hand.

I must confess that I am deeply grieved in my spirit when I meet these would-be Sons of God who look with contempt upon those who still have a passion for souls and desire to see men delivered from the power of the devil. I am aware of the fact that the hour has not yet arrived when God shall deal with all nations, and multitudes of past generations, to bring forth His salvation in them, but it is my deepest conviction that one of the sure marks of sonship is the spirit of reconciliation. Why speak of our great hope of what God shall do in the ages to come if the spirit of that hope is not now alive in our hearts? It is not the doctrine of reconciliation that shall change the world, but the ministry of reconciliation. The ministry of reconciliation springs from the spirit of reconciliation.

If you would not walk across the street to see some poor soul delivered and converted by the redeeming power of Christ, don't waste your time relating to me how you are chosen of God to help in the delivering of the whole creation from the bondage of sin and death. The Spirit of Reconciliation must reign within our hearts. The Ministry of Reconciliation must issue forth from our lives. Rivers of Living Water must, even now, pour forth out of our innermost being, bringing hope and victory and life to all who will come and drink! Amen!

Back to Savior of the World Series Index
Savior of the World Series

[JM]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

You wrote "Universalism rests on that the reason God will not punish non believing people for Sin is because Jesus has dealt with it regardless of peoples belief in Jesus"

THIS IS A GROSS ERROR! Go to the following link and click on LAKE OF FIRE which is the third sub-title down and read why you are so very wrong about that!

The Lake of Fire

Regarding what our attitude towards the unbeliever should be, for me it is summed up very well by the following quote from J. Preston Eby:

""Why preach and teach the Gospel if all are to be saved ultimately? There is no need to witness for they will be saved someday, someway, somewhere - right?" Wrong! First, the Christian life is so rich and beautiful and worthwhile that it would be the only life to live, even if there were no hereafter. Ask those who have truly known and experienced Christ over a period of years. Was it not Dr. A. J. Gordon who met an old crippled man on the street, and asked him why, with all his handicap, his face was nevertheless so bright and shining? And the old man answered, "The devil has no happy old men!"

Furthermore, God will never save your loved ones, your neighbors, or any other person who has ever lived or who ever shall live apart from a means, an instrument through which to reach them. And WE are that instrument! God declares to His elect in Isa. 49:6, "I will also give you for a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation unto the end of the earth." The method by which God causes men to believe is revealed in Rom. 10:14-15. "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? and how shall they BELIEVE in Him of whom they have not HEARD? and how shall they HEAR without a PREACHER? and how shall they PREACH except they be SENT?" Does the salvation of all men negate this procedure? No way! It only intensifies it! The simple truth is that God purposes to save all men. The means by which He shall accomplish this is a people, a royal priesthood, the Sons of God, who are made ONE with the priestly ministry of Jesus the great High Priest, to intercede, witness, speak, exhort, warn, entreat, preach, and proclaim the redemptive power of the Christ until this ministry conquers all men for God.

Ah - does the fact that God will have all men to be saved mean that it is meaningless to WITNESS, to PREACH? A thousand times no! "It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:21). So we cannot preach less, we must not witness less, armed now with the hope that the preaching will ultimately BEAR FRUIT we shall preach more than ever before, for this is one of God's MEANS of salvation! Those who should really give up witnessing to their loved ones, and preaching to the lost are those who believe most of them will burn for ever in hell anyway! What on earth could be more worthless, unprofitable, vain, disturbing and disappointing than witnessing and preaching to men when we actually believe that only a small fraction of them will ever be saved? Why bother? To what end all the labor? The devil gets most of them in the end anyhow!

We who know that God will have all men to be saved are really the only people on earth who have real purpose in ministering to the lost. Praise God! He has committed unto us the ministry of reconciliation. Now comes the word: "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: We pray you in Christ's stead, be reconciled unto God." (11 Cor. 5:18-20).

The apostle shows how it is that God was in Christ reconciling-- not the church, not the saints, not just believers, but the WORLD unto Himself, and now has given the ministry by which this reconciliation is to be effected---unto US! "We pray you in Christ's stead." Not witness to our loved ones because they will be saved anyway? Not preach to the unconverted because they will be saved in the end? The very idea is absurd, a complete contradiction of terms! Because God has made blessed provision for their salvation IS WHY WE WITNESS! On the contrary, to witness and witness and witness to vast numbers of people who will never be saved would be an effort in futility. If I believed that nonsense, then I really might stop preaching!

Will believing that God is the Saviour of all men do away with evangelistic fervor and zeal? Only in men who hold a carnal knowledge of the doctrine in their intellect, but have no deep revelation of the truth of it in their hearts. It did not affect the apostle Paul in this manner. On the contrary it increased his fervor and zeal. Paul states it clearly and emphatically, "For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (I Tim. 4:10). After many years of ministry, being, by the grace of God, an instrument of God to help a great many people in the deep spiritual, psychical, and physical needs of their lives, I testify that I know of no greater joy on earth than the joy of seeing people receive Christ as their own Saviour and Lord. Just ask anyone who has led some person to the Lord, what is the greatest joy he knows. He will not be slow in telling you. Or try it yourself!

The fact that we see and appreciate God's great and wonderful plan for all men leaves no room in us for a dilatory, DON'T CARE spirit. The elect of God are always conscious of their unique calling. We are given the high honor of being "laborers together with God." Some day when the last devil has been subjected, and the last sinner broken in humility and contrition at the lovely feet of Jesus, we shall realize, as we may not now, just how great that honor really is, and how much we have missed if we fail to share in this task to which the Almighty has set His hand.

I must confess that I am deeply grieved in my spirit when I meet these would-be Sons of God who look with contempt upon those who still have a passion for souls and desire to see men delivered from the power of the devil. I am aware of the fact that the hour has not yet arrived when God shall deal with all nations, and multitudes of past generations, to bring forth His salvation in them, but it is my deepest conviction that one of the sure marks of sonship is the spirit of reconciliation. Why speak of our great hope of what God shall do in the ages to come if the spirit of that hope is not now alive in our hearts? It is not the doctrine of reconciliation that shall change the world, but the ministry of reconciliation. The ministry of reconciliation springs from the spirit of reconciliation.

If you would not walk across the street to see some poor soul delivered and converted by the redeeming power of Christ, don't waste your time relating to me how you are chosen of God to help in the delivering of the whole creation from the bondage of sin and death. The Spirit of Reconciliation must reign within our hearts. The Ministry of Reconciliation must issue forth from our lives. Rivers of Living Water must, even now, pour forth out of our innermost being, bringing hope and victory and life to all who will come and drink! Amen!

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Savior of the World Series

Roger, you are quoting another " MANS " interpretation of a religious text.. which as someday and many have said.. been cut up in so many ways by man, delivered, distributed and unknowingly and knowingly been created through biased views that... providing a link to a website online or a book..

Might convince YOU and so you continue to live in that experience but it doesn't convince ALL or make it SO

Universalism still rests on the fact of seperation from God, and a God of need

[JM]

I like this part in your article of assumed truth lol

" I believe every word that the Bible says about the lake of fire; I don't believe what Rome says about it, nor what the apostate Churches say about it, nor what tradition says about it; but I certainly believe what the Bible says about it." link

Duh!.. they are all drawing from the same bible.. His argument is over a matter of interpretation and this has been the pinnacle argument that has always gone on.. it is what has caused one person to say to another.. " you are not a christian " .. " You are not saved ", " You are not accepted ". " You are Seperated from God " , " You dont hear God "

and on and on and on and on....

MEANWHILE.. back at the ranch of sanity

Others have moved beyond the correct interpretation and looked at the very text and those who delievered it..

As there is no point disputing interpretation if you dont have text or people which is/are 100% truthful at least about God

This then becomes a new argument but one which is easily understood without the need for extensive research

If today people can skew what they THINK God has said to them, and people today scrutinize any view about God, then the same scrutinity and ability to skew things about what a person THOUGHT God said to them is to be applied to people of old .