Gods Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question

[Someday]

This answer of course has its own problems. If Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree, how could they have known it not good to exercize the freedom of eating from the tree?

I don't believe it's a question of whether or not they knew right from wrong. It's a question of eating the fruit of that knowledge. Eating the fruit of a thing is equal to experiencing it. Many people are acquainted with gambling for instance. When one eats the fruit of gambling, they participate in it with whatever result follows. Similarly, consider when plans come to fruition. The fruit is the end result.
God warned them about participation.

I consider this a parable first and foremost that explains our spiritual condition more than it does our material condition. I draw that conclusion from both Jewish and early Christian literature. The literal nature of this tale seems to have developed later.

either there is no god or that god is not moral

Moral according to............?

Blessings

[kmisho]

Originally Posted by Someday

I don't believe it's a question of whether or not they knew right from wrong. It's a question of eating the fruit of that knowledge. Eating the fruit of a thing is equal to experiencing it. Many people are acquainted with gambling for instance. When one eats the fruit of gambling, they participate in it with whatever result follows. Similarly, consider when plans come to fruition. The fruit is the end result.
God warned them about participation.

I consider this a parable first and foremost that explains our spiritual condition more than it does our material condition. I draw that conclusion from both Jewish and early Christian literature. The literal nature of this tale seems to have developed later.

But someone today who goes out and gambles is supposedly equipped with the ability to tell right from wrong. He is equipped to make a decision abotu what actions to take and can therefore be held accountable for the consequences. This is not true of Adam and Eve.

Of course there are metaphorical ways out of the dilemma and yours is one. I could name some others. But you have to admit there are a lot of people who do not take this story as metaphorical at all and it's for them that the problems with the story are most accute.

Moral according to............?

That is exactly what I would ask god!

[Someday]

But you have to admit there are a lot of people who do not take this story as metaphorical at all and it's for them that the problems with the story are most accute.

I do admit it, and here we agree.

On that note, I have to leave off this conversation a while. I am going on a working vacation and do not know if I will be able to look in on this forum. Maybe, but I simply do not know.

Blessings

[JM]

Originally Posted by kmisho

This answer of course has its own problems. If Adam and Eve did not have knowledge of good and evil prior to eating from the tree, how could they have known it not good to exercize the freedom of eating from the tree?

He's not dodging. Your expalantion (the Bible's explanation) is contradictory.

Well i agree there are contradictory areas in the bible

The answer to your question could be.. going on the basis that eden was a real place and such...and not just symbolic..

That they didnt need to know good or bad to excercise the choice to eat from a tree.. they could just take that action without knowing Good or Bad

They may not have understood what Good and Bad was..

Again its just a thought.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by kmisho

.....there are a lot of people who do not take this story as metaphorical at all and it's for them that the problems with the story are most accute.

Yes, acute problems....though many prefer to not even think, discuss, or question because they've been so deeply indoctrinated and quite possibly have a subconcious fear keeping them there. It's understandable, because western orthodoxy doesn't seem, to me, to be able to answer those questions satisfactorily....and to question the orthodox "authority" will get you quickly thrown into the heretic camp.
Nothing new under the sun there!

I think that's why, IMHO, Bart Ehrman went so far on the other side of the fence after he gained the knowledge that countered the ingrained teachings of his early years---most especially the inerrant authority of the bible doctrine.

[kmisho]

Originally Posted by Grace

Yes, acute problems....though many prefer to not even think, discuss, or question because they've been so deeply indoctrinated and quite possibly have a subconcious fear keeping them there. It's understandable, because western orthodoxy doesn't seem, to me, to be able to answer those questions satisfactorily....and to question the orthodox "authority" will get you quickly thrown into the heretic camp.
Nothing new under the sun there!

I think that's why, IMHO, Bart Ehrman went so far on the other side of the fence after he gained the knowledge that countered the ingrained teachings of his early years---most especially the inerrant authority of the bible doctrine.

Could be. That's the problem with total certainty. It better darn sure be certain. For anyone who finds to their satisfaction even the slightest problem, the sense of betrayal is complete.

[Pete J]

Originally Posted by paul watts

Professor Bart D. Ehrman who chairs the religious studies department at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has written a new book called 'Gods Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question — Why We Suffer'.


The question of why there is so much suffering in the world and my inability to find any answers that made sense to me is one of the main reasons why I lost my faith.

Now this learned guy has written a whole book on the subject and it looks as if he reached the same conclusions as myself.

I will be putting this on my 'to read' list but will any Christians be considering the same?

The answer to this question is actually quite simple and consists of 3 parts:

1. Suffering exists because we live in a fallen world.

2. What mankind may perceive as suffering is subject to our limited perception. God has a view of all things without the constraints of time. This point specifically refers to things such as 'untimely death', etc.

3. Interwoven with point 2; God can - and does - bring about the propensity for good through the bad things that happen in our fallen world. Through adversity we learn and grow - this is obviously facilitated if we view the suffering with the right attitude.

[JM]

Originally Posted by Pete J

The answer to this question is actually quite simple and consists of 3 parts:

1. Suffering exists because we live in a fallen world.

2. What mankind may perceive as suffering is subject to our limited perception. God has a view of all things without the constraints of time. This point specifically refers to things such as 'untimely death', etc.

3. Interwoven with point 2; God can - and does - bring about the propensity for good through the bad things that happen in our fallen world. Through adversity we learn and grow - this is obviously facilitated if we view the suffering with the right attitude.

I would like to comment on this, not that I am correct but just want to provide a few more things to consider

You said.. in point 1 Suffering exists because we live in a fallen world...

From a Christian teaching perspective that makes sense, Because it lines up with the bibles teaching.

but

From a person who doesnt hold to the Christian teaching, the statement is assumption, nothing more.... as noone can prove outside of the bible that this world is in a fallen state from a state which is not fallen, as noone has experienced the non fallen state..

It brings up the thoughts that suffering is in some way is not part of lifes natural balance, not part of experience.. yet we know so much is learned and gained through suffering which kind of lines up with your 3rd point.

Not to say though that suffering is nice or that I would wish suffering on anyone.. but its certainly instrumental in providing a fuller experience

[Gray]

Originally Posted by Pete J

Suffering exists because we live in a fallen world.

So we are all paying the price for Adam and Eve's failure of a test that God already knew they would fail before he gave it to them?

[JM]

Originally Posted by Gray

So we are all paying the price for Adam and Eve's failure of a test that God already knew they would fail before he gave it to them?

From a christian teaching perspective that is the case..

But I for one.. just dont buy into that... I think its retarded

Why would anyone in their right mind, damn everyone for the sake of 1 persons disobedience

Also it goes on the basis, that God needs Obedience

To need, you must be lacking

To lack.. you must be less than whole

Do we honestly feel God, is less than whole..

I think not!

I think we have mixed mythology, paganism and truth together and have come out with what we have today.. The christian message in its multiple variations based on what a person chooses to accept.