Which God?

[Commodore Angryy]

I recently started university, and i chose religion as one of my majors. Very first lectures, we started talking about how the concept of the Christian god has evolved.

1st one. The 'up there' god. This is the one which sees heaven as a physical place in the sky, and hell underground. God and Satan rule them respectively, and often send angels and demons to the Earth to communicate, or make bearing on the physical world. God is a physical, sentient, and extremely relateable being.

2nd one. The 'out there' god. In this circumstance, Heaven and hell are not part of the physical world, and neither is God. He is still seen as sentient and relateable, but in this circumstance he doesn;t apparantly take physical form, though is capable of it. This is the only time where god is supposedly everywhere at the same time, rather in the first case, not actually being there but still being able to see all.

3rd option. This is the newest theory to come out, and is rather complex. This one states that God doesn;t actually exist at all, but is the basis on which existence can happen. This very much takes away the relateability of God, though. It does however seem to strengthen faith, in the fact that there is no point in rationally, or philosophically thinking about the existence of God, as in this case he is higher than existence itself.

So which one do you believe and why? (i will try to clarify if there are questions)

Commodore,
Could you explain door #3 a little more? It sounds interesting.

[Commodore Angryy]

Sure ... in a couple of days after i've had another lecture.

[Someday]

I don't want to interfere with your religious education, but if your lecturer is telling you that the early Christians believed God was "up there", he/she is simply wrong. Allow me to give just one quote from a very early Christian that relates to Christian thought about God's abode in those early days:

"We know our God from his energies, but we do not claim that we can draw near to His essence. For His energies come down to us, but His essence remains unapproachable. God is not a nature, for He is above all nature; He is not a being, for He is above all beings... No single thing of all that is created has or ever will have even the slightest communion with the supreme nature, or nearness to it," (St. Basil the Great-Homily 16, P.G. cli, 193)

Essentially, we can only know of God through His energies, also referred to as His Grace and the Holy spirit. His abode, Heaven, is not part of creation. Basil explained God's transcendence in terms of His essence, and His immanence in terms of His energies. It is by means of His energies that God dwells with men. It is Himself communicating Himself to men in His energies.

Simply put, my vote is "other".

[Commodore Angryy]

Originally Posted by Someday

His abode, Heaven, is not part of creation. Basil explained God's transcendence in terms of His essence, and His immanence in terms of His energies. It is by means of His energies that God dwells with men. It is Himself communicating Himself to men in His energies.

Simply put, my vote is "other".

I appreciate your input. However, i must say that my lecturer, having his master's degree (i think, could be higher), truly does know what he's talking about. And in relation to the heavens not being part of God's creation ... "God created the heavens and the Earth".

Really, if your claims are going to be related to the scriptures laid down by the bible, i must say that the perception of God HAS indeed changed, because the meaning in some scriptures has also changed through the generations. Such as, some people advocate that when the bible refers to Adam, it in fact refers to 'atoms', as the basis of mankind. Of course, most people would see this as ludicrous, but it shows how the bible differs in meaning from person to person. Thus, on the Bible alone, the Early Christians, though obviously recognising the spiritual properties of God, we may assume also believed that there was a physical place caled heaven.

However, this isn't actually relating to biblical scripture AT ALL. It's about the general consensus of what God means to people at the particular time in question.



And Angelfire ... I'm still working on a better description of option 3. It's REALLY difficult.

[JM]

Originally Posted by Commodore Angryy

I appreciate your input. However, i must say that my lecturer, having his master's degree (i think, could be higher), truly does know what he's talking about. And in relation to the heavens not being part of God's creation ... "God created the heavens and the Earth".

Really, if your claims are going to be related to the scriptures laid down by the bible, i must say that the perception of God HAS indeed changed, because the meaning in some scriptures has also changed through the generations. Such as, some people advocate that when the bible refers to Adam, it in fact refers to 'atoms', as the basis of mankind. Of course, most people would see this as ludicrous, but it shows how the bible differs in meaning from person to person. Thus, on the Bible alone, the Early Christians, though obviously recognising the spiritual properties of God, we may assume also believed that there was a physical place caled heaven.

However, this isn't actually relating to biblical scripture AT ALL. It's about the general consensus of what God means to people at the particular time in question.



And Angelfire ... I'm still working on a better description of option 3. It's REALLY difficult.

Interesting topic ... I really should be outside with the palm trees.. im down in Florida right now.. away from snowy canada .. HOORAY!..

Commodore I dont want to discredit your teacher as, I dont know him and I dont know who taught him or what curriculum he is following.. ( some teachers teach from a set curriculum ) but lets keep things in a clear light, he and whoever taught him are not all knowing.. and neither are we or anyone in the reglious community.. so our concepts, ideas and thoughts on God will always.. ALWAYS be subjective

Ive heard many a convincing argument for and against the existence of God, along with various ideas on who God is and who we are...

Yet at the end of the day each person will decide what logically makes sense to them based on what they are willing to accept and live by..

Even if I was to say I have a book at home that is dated back to the time of Jesus, that doesnt mean thats its accurate or even TRUSTWORTHY

I think the word " TRUSTWORTHY " is something we should consider, as there are many teachers, many books and many historical views on what, who, when and why.... YET all of them face the same question

Which is TRUSTWORTHY

Some might say.. the BOOK that has lasted the longest

And maybe that has some validity to it.. but does that mean its completely TRUSTWORTHY ?

What I love about our conversations about God is no ONE person can claim to be right, well they can claim it... but that doesnt make their view right, as upon providing their limited EVIDENCE which is likely going to be a teacher, a book, a seminar or some historical artifact...

The question of " Is it Trustworthy ? " will come back up..

Only YOU can decide.. for yourself..

[One-Lamb-of-God]

The Real God is:

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the One and Only True God:
The God of Israel who sent His Son Jesus Christ who gave His Holy Spirit to believers.
The God of the (2 Tim 3:15) holy scriptures. THAT GOD!!!

More hints - The Real God is:
The God of the Apostle Paul who wrote 2/3's of the NT.
The God of the Apostle James the half brother of Jesus our Lord.
The God of the Apostle John who wrote the book of Revelation.

The same God of the OT is the same God of the NT - in other words trust the God of The Full Word of God - your Bible.

Peace.

[friendly hardline atheist]

Hello One-Lamb-of-God,

Originally Posted by One-Lamb-of-God

The Real God is:

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the One and Only True God:
The God of Israel who sent His Son Jesus Christ who gave His Holy Spirit to believers.
The God of the (2 Tim 3:15) holy scriptures. THAT GOD!!!

More hints - The Real God is:
The God of the Apostle Paul who wrote 2/3's of the NT.
The God of the Apostle James the half brother of Jesus our Lord.
The God of the Apostle John who wrote the book of Revelation.

The same God of the OT is the same God of the NT - in other words trust the God of The Full Word of God - your Bible.

Peace.

Your post sounds full of conviction. But I'm not convinced. In particular, the various refrences to scripture bring out a skepticism in me a often feel when debating christians. What would you say when debating a Hindu who believes in very different things than you, and has his/her scripture to support these ideas? If you tell them they're wrong they'll point to their scripture to say why they believe in their flavour of faith. You could say that theirs is circular reasoning, i. e. it is circular to hold up a story to validate the authenticity of that same story. And you would be right. Problem for you is, your post suggests that that is mostly what you're doing also. Holding up the bible to support the ideas in the bible. Let me give an analogy as to why that reasoning is completely null and void.

I take a piece of paper and I write two things on it. On the top half I write

"The moon is a huge purple-coloured banana that is made up on the inside of a mixture of peanut butter and boiling ketchup"

On the bottom half of the piece of paper I write

"Everything written on this piece of paper is the infallible word of God, given to man by divine revelation, and therefore The Truth beyond any doubt"

If I told you the moon is that big purple banana, you wouldn't believe me right? If I then pointed out the the first statement on the piece of paper and said 'See, there you have it, purple banana it is!' you'd say I'm bonkers. If I then pointed out the second statement to prove the validity of my piece of paper, you still wouldn't be convinced, would you? Yet in your own situation that is exactly what you do. Holding up a book with a darn wacko story (to put it mildly), pointing out various bits of the same book as to why you think that story is true.

greets,
Peter

[Commodore Angryy]

Originally Posted by One-Lamb-of-God

The Real God is:

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is the One and Only True God:
The God of Israel who sent His Son Jesus Christ who gave His Holy Spirit to believers.
The God of the (2 Tim 3:15) holy scriptures. THAT GOD!!!

More hints - The Real God is:
The God of the Apostle Paul who wrote 2/3's of the NT.
The God of the Apostle James the half brother of Jesus our Lord.
The God of the Apostle John who wrote the book of Revelation.

The same God of the OT is the same God of the NT - in other words trust the God of The Full Word of God - your Bible.

Peace.

... Why? Why are you telling me this? The question was what is your personal concept of God, not why you think that the God of Christianity is the correct one. We have enough threads about that.

I'm sure quite soon i'll be making threads on the ontological and cosmological arguments. All of these will be focusing on a god in GENERAL, no one of a particular faith. I will rely on general conceptions like god is omnipotent, omniscient etc.

So if we could keep this thread on track, and realise what i'm actually talking about (which has nothing to do with asking for proof or evidence of ANY kind) we should do all right.


And so far as far as the poll goes ... that's really cool. 4 of you havent taken any of the three traditional options. So what is your conception as to the physical/spiritual entity that is god?

[One-Lamb-of-God]

Ok, thanks. The difference of Truth or Error any concept of God is having the Holy Spirit.

If you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you He'll keep testifying of who Jesus is and He'll lead you to The Bible.

I'm a witness to this and God the Father bears record of His own doing in the life of His disciples through Christ His Son.

So if we are lead by God's Holy Spirit we will know the Truth and He will testify us of Jesus. Until then, it's impossible for the natural mind to understand Spiritual things of God. Actually his nature mind is hostile to the Law of God nor can he understanding these things for they are spiritually discerned. Without spiritual discernment, a Hindu, Buddist, Moslem will not ~get~ it. Until a man is Born from Above. This is why Athesist is not convinced, why should he be God has not given Him His Holy Spirit yet. So no working of mine, even any post will convince him nor does a disciple try to convince anyone. We are witnessess of His Wisdom and Righteousness sowing seeds where only God by His Holy Spirit can bring any Everlasting Increase.

Hense, my concept of God, is not my own nor does it matter, the true concept of God (if we want to know what the concept of God really is) comes from The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. According to The Truth, the Holy Spirit teaches our spirit which God, who is The Father of The Jesus Christ who Is In Heaven, gaves a disciple of The Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, my concept of God, which comes from the Holy Spirit also written in The Word of God, and acts of God:
Which God? The God of Israel, is creator ~ of all creation.
Which God? The God of Israel, is sender ~of His Son to Save.
Which God? The God of Israel, died ~on a Cross to save you.
Which God? The God of Israel, was buried ~in a tomb.
Which God? The God of Israel, was raised from the dead on the 3rd day.

Which God? The God of Israel, is waiting ~for His enemies to be placed under His Feet.
Just to list a few concepts of who God really Is.

But let the wise take note. If a person is not Born Again he can not see the kingdom of God. Why try to explain or convince anyone, it's futile to try to cause a man to see the kingdom of God. Nor does God command a discple to debate or cause anyone to see. Because they follow the Master and the Master "hath said" the truth already.

When others will one day be given the Holy Spirit by Faith, then it won't be flesh and blood showing them any Concept of God but it will be Our Father who Is In Heaven. Amen.