Validation through Experience

[friendly hardline atheist]

Originally Posted by Someday

I take it quite differently. Personal experiences are a perfect example of incomplete info. I agree that on the surface, a person can make their experience mutually exclusive with another's. This is based on only seeing their own experience as valid, and not piecing more of the info together.

While not having had any such experiences, I would imagine they would often be incomplete. But even with their incompleteness they can be contradicting. Seeing more might make it still harder to reconcile all parts, as the extra info would have to be incorporated too without trodding on the already present bits.

Of the vast spectrum of experiences people have claimed, how do you know additional insight must always exist to reconcile them all? Earlier in the thread it came up that the burden of evidence is on the party making the claim. Am I correct in thinking that you are saying that there must always be additional insight to reconcile seemingly contradicting experiences? If so, what is your basis for saying that?

On a separate note, I like how this thread is going.

greets,
Peter

[Commodore Angryy]

Originally Posted by friendly hardline atheist

And I think the famine in China killed dozens rather than hundreds of millions.

Sorry, but a piss poor post I think. Feel free to correct me if you think I had it wrong.

Peter

Look it up yourself.

[friendly hardline atheist]

Originally Posted by Commodore Angryy

Look it up yourself.

Ok.
Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but the wide spectrum of estimates there covers dozens of millions. From

Great Chinese Famine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Experts widely believe that the government seriously under-reported death tolls. Several professors and scholars have estimated that the number of "abnormal deaths" ranged from 17 million to 50 million. Some western analysts such as Patricia Buckley Ebrey estimate that about 20-40 million people had died of starvation caused by bad government policy and natural disasters. J. Banister estimates this number is about 23 million. Li Chengrui, a former minister of the National Bureau of Statistics of China, estimated 22 million (1998). His estimation was based on Ansley J. Coale and Jiang Zhenghua's estimation of 17 million. Cao Shuji estimated 32.5 million.

greets,
Peter

ps: hope I didn't offend you with the blunt appraisal of your post

[Mycernius]

Originally Posted by Commodore Angryy

Hawkins.

A single proof that any miracle as ever taken place, please.

And prophecies, i admit there are some very convincing ones, and i'd like to hear the specific ones to which you refer.

Could I expand on that question? Thank you.
How about proving that all so called miracles have happened, including ones that other faiths say that happen. This also goes for prophecy.
If a miracle happens for a hindu that has prayed to Vishnu, Vishnu must exist. Same goes for any number of gods I can come up with. If a miracle has happened, all it proves is that miracles happen, not that they are done by one single god of any faith. Accept that your god does miracles then you MUST accept that the gods of other faiths have done miracles. If not then you are being hypocritical. Either all gods exist or miracles are just that. Something we cannot explain.
Prophecy is even worse. Normally taken from a quote that is very obscure that you could fit anything into it. The prophecy of Jesus for example. Christians believe it and say that all the prophecies in the OT match Jesus. Yey Jews and plenty of sceptics do not accept this. Why not? Because they see areas where the prophecy hasn't happened. It is all down to how the words are interpreted and seen by those of the faith and those not of the faith. You could even say the same for Nostradamus. Strange lines of poetry made to fit things that have happened because the refernece is so obscure.

[Commodore Angryy]

Originally Posted by friendly hardline atheist

Ok.
Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but the wide spectrum of estimates there covers dozens of millions. From

Great Chinese Famine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Experts widely believe that the government seriously under-reported death tolls. Several professors and scholars have estimated that the number of "abnormal deaths" ranged from 17 million to 50 million. Some western analysts such as Patricia Buckley Ebrey estimate that about 20-40 million people had died of starvation caused by bad government policy and natural disasters. J. Banister estimates this number is about 23 million. Li Chengrui, a former minister of the National Bureau of Statistics of China, estimated 22 million (1998). His estimation was based on Ansley J. Coale and Jiang Zhenghua's estimation of 17 million. Cao Shuji estimated 32.5 million.

greets,
Peter

ps: hope I didn't offend you with the blunt appraisal of your post

Yeah you did offend me. I had no idea we had a post rating system going. and wow ... i made a typo, and put an extra 0 in 30. Not that hard of a mistake to make.

[friendly hardline atheist]

Originally Posted by Commodore Angryy

Yeah you did offend me.

My apologies.

greets,
Peter

[Commodore Angryy]

Originally Posted by friendly hardline atheist

My apologies.

greets,
Peter

Quite accepted. Internet grudges are pointless.

[Someday]

If a miracle happens for a hindu that has prayed to Vishnu, Vishnu must exist. Same goes for any number of gods I can come up with

Perhaps they are all forms of the same God. I'm becoming more and more aware of the similarities in the vast majority of Gods known throughout history than in the differences. We.... being dogmatic and wishing to be right.... claim our God to be the one true God. In so doing we focus on the differences instead of the similarities. What if we are all wrong, but yet.......all correct?

Blessings

[Someday]

Originally Posted by friendly hardline atheist

Of the vast spectrum of experiences people have claimed, how do you know additional insight must always exist to reconcile them all? Earlier in the thread it came up that the burden of evidence is on the party making the claim. Am I correct in thinking that you are saying that there must always be additional insight to reconcile seemingly contradicting experiences? If so, what is your basis for saying that?

On a separate note, I like how this thread is going.

I am saying it worthy of further inquiry. I don't apply the absolutes of "must always" here. That would be akin to creating a new law. While there are contradictions, it seems to me that the contradictions are on the lower end of the value scale when compared to the experiential similarities.
If you take a dogmatic approach, and insist that because men call God by many names, than of course the various names of the gods are contradictory in themselves. Person A attributes an experience to Yahweh, and person B has a similar experience that they attribute to Moneto. I'm not so dogmatic that I am absolutely convinced that any of us have His name right. I lean towards the concept that God is God, and there really is not a name by which He needs to be called other than that.

Blessings

[Commodore Angryy]

Originally Posted by Someday

Perhaps they are all forms of the same God. I'm becoming more and more aware of the similarities in the vast majority of Gods known throughout history than in the differences. We.... being dogmatic and wishing to be right.... claim our God to be the one true God. In so doing we focus on the differences instead of the similarities. What if we are all wrong, but yet.......all correct?

Blessings

What about the evil Gods? Say, if someone by chance prayed to Mars, or maybe even Baal (who was malevolent) and their prayers were answered, does that mean that these bad gods constitute a part of THE god ... which is love?