07-31-2008, 01:44 PM
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God and Relativity
Why I believe in God exists?
I am a scientific person and everything should be explained by facts and evidences. The verse that peaked my interest is this one: Peter 3:8 NIV But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. .... One might ask, how can a day be a thousand years and a thousand years be a day? This sound rather absurd. But, using scientific knowledge, this becomes possible. Its called relativity. Here is a mathematical explanation: Say, if a spaceship traveling at 80% the speed of light for 1 hour, how much time has passed by relative to Earth? t1=Gamma x t2 where gamma is 1/√ [1- (v/c)² ] and the t1 and t2 are the times to each observer. So, say that we're at v=0.8c Gamma is going to be 1/√[1-.64] or 1/√[.36] which works out to Gamma=5/3 If the spaceship sees one hour, t earth=(5/3) x (1 hour) The earth experiences 5/3 hours or 1.667 hours. Simplifying everything, we have: Δt' = γ Δt . . = Δt / √( 1 - v² / c² ) . . = ( 1 hr ) / √( 1 - ( 0.8c )² / c² ) . . = 1 hr / √( 1 - 0.64 ) . . = 1 hr / 0.6 . . = 1.667 hr Therefore, the spaceship is effectively traveling to the future as 1 hour on the spaceship traveling at 80% the speed of light equals 1.667 hours on Earth. Adding the scriptures here, to the Lord 1.667 hour is like an hour (…a thousand years are like a day). Science has explained that time dilation is possible according to Einstein’s Relativity. Reading the verse again (Peter 3:8), how fast is the Lord traveling so that a thousand years on Earth is like a day with Him? Solution: Δt = t_0 / √(1 - v² / c² ) 1000 years = 1 day / √(1 - v² / 299,792,458² ) 365250 days x √(1 - v² / 299,792,458² ) = 1 day 133407562500 x (1- v² / 89875517873681764) = 1 133407562500 - 133407562500v² / 89875517873681764 = 1 - 133407562500v² / 89875517873681764 = -133407562499 - 133407562500v² = -11990073767863191518066568236 v² = 89875517873008072.672541095531972 v = 299792457.99887640380956453724992 The answer is 299,792,457.99887640380956453724992 m/s. The speed of light is exactly 299,792,458 m/s. It strangely gives a result of near the speed of light at 99.999999999625% of unbelievable accuracy. In order for time to move, the Lord should be traveling less than the speed of light because at exactly at the speed of light, time will be zero at infinity, at eternity. The verse strangely registers just a tiny hair away from the speed of light to enable for time to move, otherwise, it will stand still at the speed of light and there will be no time to measure in this case. The strange accuracy of the verse should be well noted. It could compute for any random number resulting less than the speed of light, like say, 129,324,987 m/s, but, strangely it chooses a resulting answer digit for digit accuracy of the speed of light except for the last digit in order to make a point. It is as if it is trying to get our attention of the accuracy of the Bible. The first quantitative estimate of the speed of light was only made in 1676 by Ole Christensen Rømer. .... There! This is not the only fact I have discovered in the Bible, there are even more! How can an ancient Bible knows about time dilation and the speed of light even before Einsteins theory of Relativity??? Very strange. One leads to conclude that Einstein copied his ideas from the Bible. Did Einstein plagiarise? The Bible contains both, faith and fact. In faith, so that you believe without evidence, in fact, so that you believe. 
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07-31-2008, 03:22 PM
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Are you suggesting that God is a being that is moving through space at or near the speed of light? How long does it take God to move from Earth to the Andromeda galaxy? Can one being traveling that fast be everywhere at once? Can a traveling God successfully maintain the universe this way? How long will it take Him to get to Earth to tend to needs here when He is visiting the galaxy A1689-zD1. At the speed of light, it will take Him 2.2 billion years!
I personally am of the belief that God permeates all things, yet is also independent of them. To God, time does not exist. Eternal means without beginning or end. All created things by definition have a beginning, including time, or at least the perception of it. Blessings
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"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Last edited by Someday : 07-31-2008 at 03:33 PM.
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07-31-2008, 05:12 PM
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The Bible does contain fact and faith, just like so does a Amazon romance novel determining what is fact is always going to be objective as long as the information being presented has come through mans hands So while there are areas within the bible that can be validated as fact, and so is their areas within the koran that can be validated as fact Not all of what is declared from pulpits is Fact, its faith presented as a fact .. and when the rubber hits the road... rarely can the assumed facts be proven to be real facts Alot of our acceptance of things is formed out of what has been taught to us, the questions that have been posed to us and fears we let control us. Concerning matter about GOD Things will always be subjective until God him/her/no gender provides it directly, not through mans hands.
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-----===Change is Inevitable===-----
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07-31-2008, 05:25 PM
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Time was created, to God it does exist, for if it didnt neither would no time which you suggest God exists in, if God is not in time. In the creation of of Here and there, That and this.. relativity was created ... the distance between the 2 is time People perceive God is independant of all things, yet this disregards the space between One thing and another.. God is life and life is found even in death, God is the creator, the creation and that which we think God is not... the space between, which is not Nothing it is just a different form of something. A look into the Observer participancy by Physicist John Wheeler provides a closer understanding of how this works. Quantum physics explains that nothing that is observed is unaffected by the observer, in other words the creator and the created are one, each creating the other John Hagelin another Physicist is one of many scientists who proposes a theory of everything TOE this is that the idea that all of Life is a unified whole a whole system interconnected and interdependant and impossible to completel seperate into its individual parts even though it is perceived as seperate.
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-----===Change is Inevitable===-----
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08-04-2008, 05:45 PM
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I congratulate you on your research into QM and the many different theories being discussed out there today. All of it is extremely interesting. I'm not completely sold on some theories such as observer participancy on a macro scale, because if observation leaves an imprint on the object, this should affect subsequent observations by others. I would expect this to be detectable and verifiable on the macro scale. Schrodinger's cat is a nice thought experiment, but it is based on the fact that we cannot know what things are doing when we are not looking at them. Newtonian physics on the other hand is based on the belief that we can know what things are doing even when we are not looking at them. On the quantum level, Newton seems to be wrong but QM is at best an extremely accurate estimation and not supported by valid acceptable mathematical procedures as its formula and equations are “normalized” to get rid of all those pesky infinities. Not that they are not onto something, it's just not very well understood. In one sense, the observer participancy, if true on a macro scale would be a dart in science. Science is based on empirical evidence that can be duplicated and verified by more than one person or group. The operative word here is EMPIRICAL. If you were to look up the definition of empirical, it may bring back something similar to "that which is observed or experienced; capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment." Here “observation” is the operative word. On the other hand, I am a fan of Greek Pre-Socratic philosophy. They were mostly materialists, but eventually their arguments led Leucippus and Democritus to insist that there are two elements, atoms and the void. The atomists recognized that the best ontological explanation of the natural world would have to recognize that space is just as much a substance constituting the world as matter is. What they meant by the 'void' was something like a big three-dimensional container in which all the atoms had a location and could move. But modern science doesn't recognize that space is a substance in that sense. It's mainly just "the space between One thing and another.." in science. The real questions I would ask are: Does reality depend on our existence? Does this observation participancy, if true, mean that God needs our existence? Blessings
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"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
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08-04-2008, 10:50 PM
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As for your questions does reality depend on our existence... this depends on what you class as reality, most of what we assume is reality is a guess at what something is..this is a bootstrapping argument. God needs for nothing...otherwise God is not God as proclaimed even by the Bible as it would be contradictory..which is one of the most clearest contradictions seen in the bible/christianity which teaches and foundations are built upon a God of need So the questions are.. does God choose our existence? do We(God/US) choose existence? Its like saying.. does the ocean as a whole depend on the individual drops to be the ocean? Are the drops any less the substance of the ocean? A single drop may not be able to wield the same impact/power of the collective drops/ocean could..yet again that depends on the conditions and the manner of how and what we are applying that drop too As for the space between one thing and another.. to say that Science calls it space only would be to only speak for a small unverfied amount of the science community and would be only in reference to a particular topic or situation that doesnt require discussion of connection. There is an overhwleming acceptance in the scientific community that agree that everything is just energy, one thing from another is just vibrational energy distinguished only by speed.. Everthing is energy.. that is why when you take an ice cube which is solid and melt it to water then to vapour.. its still there its just changed formed.. Conditions reveal a lot about what we perceive as nothing, which in reality is something. Tests have been done which verify this. Everyday we use items around us that show us this. God is everything, including the nothing, the all in all.. so even the SPACE that some refuse to believe is a Something is still part of the Everything.. as the everything is the something and the nothing.. not one without the other... God holds everything together because Everything is God, the formless, the form, the male, female, the no gender, the up the down, the left the right the black the white and all the colors inbetween.. a whole expression of God/everything Yet to keep alive assumed absolutes..people live in the illusion and from this form thoughts about themselves and God as being seperate and create theologys around this in an attempt to make sense of the choices people make and natural disasters which harms others without any apparent intervention on Gods part to prevent it....
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-----===Change is Inevitable===----- Last edited by JM : 08-04-2008 at 11:35 PM.
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08-05-2008, 03:32 PM
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Reality is what exists independent on what we think or feel about it.
To me it's all an ontological question really. The reason I brought up the Pre-Socratic philosophers is because they were essentially the forerunners of materialists, but they were looking for a different kind of explanation from science. Science tries to figure out the efficient causes of what happens in the world. That's why it looks for laws of nature and tests them by their capacity to predict and control what can be observed. But the Pre-Socratics were looking for the substances that explain everything in the world, including not only what happens in the world, but also what exists there. For example, they wanted to know not only how things change, but how there could be change at all. Instead of merely inferring to the best efficient-cause explanation of what happens in the world, the Pre-Socratics were trying to figure out the best ontological explanation of what exists (as well as what happens) in the world. Blessings
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"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
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08-13-2008, 07:27 PM
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Perspective creates perception perception creates your belief Belief creates your experience Your experience creates your reality Your reality creates yor next perspective When it comes to GOD and Unseen Matters.. People can only Assume what is Reality
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-----===Change is Inevitable===----- Last edited by JM : 08-13-2008 at 07:31 PM.
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08-16-2008, 11:23 PM
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as distorting as YECs
Hello amithe1,
It's commendable that you say everything should be based of facts and evidence. Unfortunately, the piece you posted in the opening post of this thread is not an example of that. In his/her desperation to show the hand of god in nature, the author of that piece has had to stoop to the usual level of distortion common among certain groups of christians. It's a classic piece of christians being liars for jesus. One piece of distortion is the length of a day which is taken as 365.250. That might fool many people, but it's not 100% correct. The length of a day is not exactly 365 and a quarter. At present it is 365.242199, see e. g. What Is The Exact Length Of A Calendar Year? - Science Fact Finder A tiny deviation, yet it kills the accuracy claimed in the piece you quote. In that, the speed from the calculation matched the speed of light 99.999999999625% accurate, so the first 11 digits in agreement, disagreement only on the 12th digit. But the time taken for the length of a year is already inaccurate on the 6th digit. So the accuracy claimed is exaggerated by a factor of a ~million. It is also interesting to note that the rate of rotation of the earth is not perfectly constant. During the ice ages for instance, much water was closer to the poles in the form of ice, thereby lowering the angular inertia, speeding up the rate of rotation. Even the Chinese Three Gorges dam was supposed to noticeably affect the rate of rotation, imagine what the volume of water turned into ice during the ice ages would have done. The calculation posted above might actually have been accurate at some stage. But then so would tons of other, slightly different values. So whoever wrote that is either not well up to speed on things or deliberately dishonest. My guess is the latter, yet another christian showing him/herself a liar for jesus. Which leaves me with low expectations when I ask you how old you think the earth is. Would it be approximately 6000 years? greets, Peter
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