Irrefutable Proof that God exists...............

[The servant]

Originally Posted by Jane

Peter - I did look at the information about the book, and it brought my brain to a screeching halt. I thank you for the kind spirit in which it was offered. If I ever do decide I need to look there for answers, at least I'm aware of it.

The single most influential piece of literature in my spiritual journey so far has been "Life after Life" by Dr. Raymond Moody. He was a doctor to whom many of his patients had described near death experiences. The book is the result of his investigation into the phenomenon. I'm sure that much has been written since his work, but I haven't kept up with it. When I read his book, I feel hope that maybe there is an afterlife, and more to us than flesh and blood.

Believing that Jesus has the market cornered on the afterlife is a leap that I can't imagine taking. That's the door that's nailed shut.

Hi Jane
And I thank you for the reply, I was also impressed that you know of Dr Raymond Moody, I also know of his works, and Sir Oliver Lodge, Dr Richard Steinpach who wrote “Why We Live After Death” There are loads I have read up about, I study this subject with an enthusiasm beyond what many people could comprehend, I put a link in recently here on My thread on “The Ethereal Level” which is on you tube called “The Science of Eternity” well worth watching if you have a interest in our life after the life here!

YouTube - The Science Of Eternity (Part1)

Another book I would recommend is “A Wanderer in The Spirit Lands” by Francesco he died quite a while ago I believe in the early 1800s not sure though he came back through a medium to tell us his story, wow it is like sitting on his shoulders, I shall not say any more in case you decide to read it, I think I got it through a publisher who ordered me two dozen copies from America, I only have one left now.

But Dr Richard Steinpach who wrote “Why We Live after Death” I have converted his book to MP3 and I send it all over the world!
I also intend to try to contact some of the authors in the near future in the “you tube” documentary, I has caused an uproar amongst many people who do not want us to know about life after death!

Did you know that in the year 555 at Constantinople the heads of the religions took a vote as to tell us, their congregations and others, about life after death and voted not to tell us!

Peace and Light
Peter

[Upfront Atheist]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I can't believe that no-one has mentioned the obvious one - restore an amputee. Just that. Miracles are claimed all the time to cure diseases which are known to go away on their own, albiet very rarely, but no amputee has ever been cured ever.

Other than that, what would constitute proof would depend upon the exact nature of what you are looking for, e.g.

Looking for proof that prayer has an effect on a medical condition? Double blind medical tests, just like those used to test any other treatment's effect.

Looking for proof that the universe really is ~6000 years old? Check to see if any visible objects are more than 6000 light years away by parallax measurements (they are, btw) or look through rock strata formations, genetic alteration "clocks", fossil records, radioactive element decay, the options here are too many to list.

Looking for proof that Lazarus was raised from the dead? Find him (this may be tricky - if he's out there he's got 2000 years experience in not being found).

You get the general idea. If you want to know what would constitute enough evidence to convince me, then you need to be a little more specific about what you want me to be convinced of. Even the amputees don't prove the existence of YWH, they could just as easily be proof of superhuman powers in an individual, nanobots or a thousand other things.

[The servant]

Originally Posted by Upfront Atheist

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I can't believe that no-one has mentioned the obvious one - restore an amputee. Just that. Miracles are claimed all the time to cure diseases which are known to go away on their own, albiet very rarely, but no amputee has ever been cured ever.

Other than that, what would constitute proof would depend upon the exact nature of what you are looking for, e.g.

Looking for proof that prayer has an effect on a medical condition? Double blind medical tests, just like those used to test any other treatment's effect.

Looking for proof that the universe really is ~6000 years old? Check to see if any visible objects are more than 6000 light years away by parallax measurements (they are, btw) or look through rock strata formations, genetic alteration "clocks", fossil records, radioactive element decay, the options here are too many to list.

Looking for proof that Lazarus was raised from the dead? Find him (this may be tricky - if he's out there he's got 2000 years experience in not being found).

You get the general idea. If you want to know what would constitute enough evidence to convince me, then you need to be a little more specific about what you want me to be convinced of. Even the amputees don't prove the existence of YWH, they could just as easily be proof of superhuman powers in an individual, nanobots or a thousand other things.

Hi Upfront Atheist
Better late than never, to join in if you have something to say,I think that there was a thread someone started called Miracles, I could not find it when I wanted to put something up there, perhaps you should start another one?
I might put some bits up about Lazarus etc, or perhaps this is the thread to put it, I dont know?



Regards Peter

[krony]

Originally Posted by Upfront Atheist

Other than that, what would constitute proof would depend upon the exact nature of what you are looking for, e.g.

Looking for proof that prayer has an effect on a medical condition? Double blind medical tests, just like those used to test any other treatment's effect.

How about this example: You are an alcoholic for nine years and you find Christ. You continue as an alcoholic. For the next four years trying to stop drinking, doing it yourself. In prayer and teaching God leads you to know the only way he will release you from that sin of alcoholism is to confess to another person. You struggle to do that but when you finally lay down your pride and do it, you never drink again.

[nashdude]

Originally Posted by Upfront Atheist

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I can't believe that no-one has mentioned the obvious one - restore an amputee. Just that. Miracles are claimed all the time to cure diseases which are known to go away on their own, albiet very rarely, but no amputee has ever been cured ever.

First of all, Jesus refused every "assignment" by the religious establishment specifically because He didn't want them turning His ministry into a sideshow with hoops and everything. He answered the call of God, not man's desire to be entertained.

And although this is no amputee, I again point to my wife's once-miscarriage. Google the term "blighted ovum". This is what my son Caleb was, as of his initial ultrasound somewhere around his sixth or eighth week of gestation. The gestational sac is small and completely spherical. There's NOWHERE for a fetal pole to hide in it! And yet, he wasn't there. The ultrasound tech tried for almost an hour to find him, but he wasn't there.

The doctor declared him a blighted ovum, meaning that the sac formed, but the embryo did not. Mary had miscarried. Twenty-four hours later, during a follow-up ultrasound to confirm miscarriage as preparatory for a D-and-C, the tech found a fetal pole right where it was supposed to be!

Looking for proof that the universe really is ~6000 years old? Check to see if any visible objects are more than 6000 light years away by parallax measurements (they are, btw) or look through rock strata formations, genetic alteration "clocks", fossil records, radioactive element decay, the options here are too many to list.

I invite you to respond to my questions in the "Science question for atheists" thread. The short of it---if you were the Creator of a universe, would you create everything in stasis, or would you create everything already in motion? In order to have a self-sustaining universe, the answer would HAVE to be the latter, because too many systems are interdependent upon one another.

Example. You create the solar system. If you create it in stasis, ready to be set into motion, you've got gravity problems, sunlight problems, and all sorts of other things. However, note how Genesis described it. First God created the sun. Then He created the world. Then He created the living things. Each step of the process built upon the last, so that everything is created IN PROGRESS. And this from a book written between 2000 and 4000 years ago (depending on who you ask; I tend to believe 4000) in a BACKWARD, scientifically UNSOPHISTICATED culture! How could such a culture "dream up" the ONLY VIABLE WAY that such creation could occur realistically?

Please, at least go to back to that thread and actually read my argument before you give me your prepackaged answer.

Looking for proof that Lazarus was raised from the dead? Find him (this may be tricky - if he's out there he's got 2000 years experience in not being found).

Heck, there's still people being resurrected today! And yet when people document these occurances or write books about them, atheists STILL deny them because they don't WANT to believe there's a God. Incidentally, Jesus refered to this condition when discussing another man named Lazarus.

Luke 16:27-31 -- Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (Lazarus) to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A true atheist wants proof of God for only one purpose---to give him something else that he can deny and refuse. No miracle, from the raising of the dead to parting the seas to God Himself appearing and tapping you on the shoulder, will turn the heart of an atheist, because the atheist denies the SOURCE of the miracle. Thus, even if he can't explain it, it MUST have an explanation because "there's no such thing as God." So when you get right down to it, no amount of proof can convince an atheist because atheists don't WANT to be convinced.

Originally Posted by Upfront Atheist

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I can't believe that no-one has mentioned the obvious one - restore an amputee. Just that. Miracles are claimed all the time to cure diseases which are known to go away on their own, albiet very rarely, but no amputee has ever been cured ever.

My son, aged 7, prayed for a one-eyed guinea pig and it grew an eyeball. Will that do?

[JM]

Originally Posted by Upfront Atheist

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I can't believe that no-one has mentioned the obvious one - restore an amputee. Just that. Miracles are claimed all the time to cure diseases which are known to go away on their own, albiet very rarely, but no amputee has ever been cured ever.

Other than that, what would constitute proof would depend upon the exact nature of what you are looking for, e.g.

Looking for proof that prayer has an effect on a medical condition? Double blind medical tests, just like those used to test any other treatment's effect.

Looking for proof that the universe really is ~6000 years old? Check to see if any visible objects are more than 6000 light years away by parallax measurements (they are, btw) or look through rock strata formations, genetic alteration "clocks", fossil records, radioactive element decay, the options here are too many to list.

Looking for proof that Lazarus was raised from the dead? Find him (this may be tricky - if he's out there he's got 2000 years experience in not being found).

You get the general idea. If you want to know what would constitute enough evidence to convince me, then you need to be a little more specific about what you want me to be convinced of. Even the amputees don't prove the existence of YWH, they could just as easily be proof of superhuman powers in an individual, nanobots or a thousand other things.

Actually there have been numerous cases documented and plenty of people who have seen arms and legs grown out right in front of their eyes

As for lazarus.. just because he was raised from the dead according to what the bible says that doesnt mean that he didnt live out a full life of like 80 years and then die for good.. asking to find lazarus is a bit silly

As for how old the universe is.. that has no bearing on whether you believe there is a God or not.. its irrelevant The question is not how old is the universe but, what would it take for you to believe in God

[nashdude]

Originally Posted by Jon Mills

The question is not how old is the universe but, what would it take for you to believe in God

Amen, Jon.

For those who want to see an amputee grow a new limb:

A) Must you be present when it happens?
B) If all Atheists decide that is the proof they need, should God lop off enough arms and legs to satisfy the Atheists should they outnumber the available amputees?
C) Are you saying if God did as you require of Him, and regrew an amputated limb and then told you He was the God of the Bible including the person of Christ, that you'd immediately repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness through Christ's sacrifice on the cross?

[Jane]

If I saw an amputated limb grow back, literally right in front of my eyes AND Jesus Christ right next to the person with the new-again limb AND I hadn't been drinking or doing drugs, AND Jesus told me directly and clearly that he was the one who fixed it and everything the Bible says is true they surely I'd have to convert.

I understand the bit about Jesus not being a lounge act or side show, and that he doesn't have to perform these miracles for others to believe in Him. It's just that nothing short of that would work for me.

By the way, among many other actions I took, I did pray to God to help me stop using drugs and drinking and I have never had a drug or drink since. I was desperate and my way was not working. Call me ungrateful or a simpleton or whatever you like, but I don't think it was Jesus who did it. My friends, family, and stubbornness did it. So I guess that kind of "proof" didn't work for me. Again, if I wanted it to work it probably would.

The "not wanting to" part that prevents me from believing in Jesus as my personal savior. I think I'm constitutionally incapable of participating in a relationship with Jesus as many of you do. It could be that even with an amputee's restoration, I'd say, "Wow, but I still don't believe."