The Existence of Sin

[Mycernius]

Originally Posted by NCAngelFire

*whoa* When did I graduate to "senior member"???

I don't know when it changes? One day your just average member and suddenly your dotage catches up with you and you're a Senior member. As long as you don't get the moments to go with the senior, you'll be fine. Now, why did I put the remote in the fridge?

Adam and Eve didn't understand what sin was, they didn'tknow the difference between right or wrong, essentially they were innocent children.

I just LOVE it when an atheist wants to explain the Bible to me!*L* Does it get any better than this???

They were "innocent" in that they were without sin, but they weren't stupid or unlearned. They were the highest creation. Think of them as the 10X version of humankind and the rest of us as the 2.435 version that becomes worse rather than improves. Their cognitive abilities and logic and all those other lofty qualities of human ability were at their peak.

They chose.

[friendly hardline atheist]

Hi Debbie,

Originally Posted by NCAngelFire

Have you ever repotted a plant or pulled one out of the earth to find that the plant's root system was so hair-like and immense that every little particle of soil had roots wrapped around it? That's how I am visualizing how completely sin encapsulates our inner being, how much it controls us, our behavior and our thoughts so thoroughly and completely that we are essentially blind to it's affects most of the time!

The Bible teaches that sin passed down to all mankind from Adam like something genetic. I suspect that as different kinds of sins arose, the sin nature multiplied within man, and grew and grew. The roots became deeper and more pervasive.

Thanks for writing up your thoughts. Unfortunately, it doesn't help me think any more reasonable of the concept of original sin. If I still believed in god I'd think everyone probably does a few things that are sinful. Is everyone then sinful? Well yes, the moment they commit that sin they were always bound to commit, and not before. So destined to commit sins in later life perhaps (especially if we're created to so much want to commit what is supposed to be sin, duh). But not born guilty of sin. So none of those excuses of the old-guard christians of this forum who said 'Sure, the drowning of just born babies in the flood was fully justified, because they were tainted by original sin'. That is a totally warped piece of illogic that imo disqualifies those christians from deserving to be listened to on the subject of morality.

greets,
Peter

ps: you became senior member after 100 posts, you just didn't notice for a while.

Hey Peter,
I really had in mind addressing what JM and I had bantered with more than the whole infants and sin issue. Let me try that on in the morning. I'm a little sleepy right now.

ps: you became senior member after 100 posts, you just didn't notice for a while.

Yes, I suspected that but the "senior" thing makes me feel unnecessarily old! You'll understand someday *L*

Thanks for writing up your thoughts. Unfortunately, it doesn't help me think any more reasonable of the concept of original sin. If I still believed in god I'd think everyone probably does a few things that are sinful. Is everyone then sinful? Well yes, the moment they commit that sin they were always bound to commit, and not before. So destined to commit sins in later life perhaps (especially if we're created to so much want to commit what is supposed to be sin, duh). But not born guilty of sin. So none of those excuses of the old-guard christians of this forum who said 'Sure, the drowning of just born babies in the flood was fully justified, because they were tainted by original sin'. That is a totally warped piece of illogic that imo disqualifies those christians from deserving to be listened to on the subject of morality.

Ok, let me see if I have this straight--if you believed in God, then you could agree that every person sins at some point in their life after they have grown up a bit? But you wouldn't believe or don't believe that babies are born with a sin nature that dooms them to hell? Do I have that right?

Then, if so, I too agree that we all sin consciously, by choice, at some point. I do however believe that we are born with that somewhat genetic-like sin nature, thanks to A&E. Now whether babies/children go to hell if they die young, I would still have to agree with you that they don't.

What I can't do is point to specific scripture to prove or disprove my point dogmatically. I could spend a lot of effort here giving proofs I think point in that direction, but I can't be totally dogmatic. (Surprised?)

My weightiest argument would point to God's attributes of goodness and mercy.

[JM]

Originally Posted by NCAngelFire

Unbelief is a sin so you're wrong to say that losing or failing of faith in God has nothing to do with belief in sin. Whether you believe in sin or not, or believe in God of not, doesn't make either one cease to exist.

Correction my friend

The Bible provides the framework for your views on Sin, so if your drawing your ideas for life and sin from there, then the view is correct

But...

That does not mean its true or that it exists as the bible is not the standard by which all things are determined to be true or not. Only to those who choose to let it be.

A person can belief in God but not believe in Sin
A person can also can not Believe in God and no believe in Sin

What is getting you all tied up here is. You think what the bible says is Absolute Truth applicable to all.

This is correct and not correct

It's correct in that if you apply it then you agree its truth
It's not correct in that if you dont apply it a person has determined its not truth

Its both Absolute and Relative and yet neither

[JM]

NCANGLE you said

My replies are in red

" Peter,
The first revelation about sin involved Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. God told them not to do something, they did it anyway, that was sin.

Thats the biblical view or myth depending on a persons belief in the bible, its not a fact

The sin was disobeying God or not believing something He has said OR possibly simply pride that they knew better than God. They reasoned, and reasoned... didn't God say we could eat of every tree? Why not this one? What possible harm could there be in eating this fruit when all the others have been ok?

A continuation of the view of the bible / and myth
###
This thread has given me some food for thought. Over the weekend I watched the movie Mr. Brooks. It's about a man addicted to murder (their description, not mine). I do think in some ways that sin is an addictive thing as well as being part of our nature or DNA perhaps.

Sin which only exists to those who think it exists... is not what causes the addiction. Choice does.


I've been tossing some of these thoughts around so I may not be good at verbalizing this, but I'll give it a shot. *ramble, ramble*

Have you ever repotted a plant or pulled one out of the earth to find that the plant's root system was so hair-like and immense that every little particle of soil had roots wrapped around it? That's how I am visualizing how completely sin encapsulates our inner being, how much it controls us, our behavior and our thoughts so thoroughly and completely that we are essentially blind to it's affects most of the time!

Oh man have you been spoon fed some stories and myths, it Controls you because you believe it controls you. It encapsulates you because you believe it encapsulates you. As a man thinketh... fill in the gaps.

The Bible teaches that sin passed down to all mankind from Adam like something genetic.

yes the Bible teaches that..and in turn man does. but God doesnt big difference!

I suspect that as different kinds of sins arose, the sin nature multiplied within man, and grew and grew. The roots became deeper and more pervasive.

Not suspect, you mean.. what you have been taught

Going back to the addiction aspect of it, how is it when someone is addicted to sex or drugs or ____fill in the blank____, that they can't identify the addiction until they have sometimes absolutely screwed up their life?

Actually there is a lot of people who can identify an addiction, you just think because they dont do something about it, they didnt identify it. Again more assumptions to validate your initial idea.

Even then, they can't stop what they are doing.

Actually they can. It is a case of providing the right conditions. Many a time a person has stopped smoking immediately when told they will die if they continue by their doctor.

Its a choice, and the battle is in the mind of what a person beliefs


In the movie, Mr. Brooks got such a "high" from murder--but why not murder? Why would it have to be a substance? I can totally see the similarity to being addicted to murder the same as one being addicted to sex or any thing else, it's a chemical response -- an exhilaration.

To me, that is when the particular sin has you by the throat, tentacles firmly in place. It is master, you are slave.

Its an illusion that a person is a slave. A good example of what Religion has done with the use of sin is, create a story that holds them a slave.. a bit like Elephant training... when they are young they tie them with a large chain, when they try to move, they get hurt, over time as they grow they change this more and more until nothing more than a small rope is attached around their ankle.. the Elephant is so entrenched in thinking that to run, means pain, they dont even bother, they dont even entertain the thought.

Same in Church and relgions today... Young ones come in and are given a story that forms a BELIEF which is nothing more than illusion

Those who question the belief realize its an illusion and break free and realize it for what it is. A Belief, and illusion nothing more.

"Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!""

A man is not wretched, they are Wonderful and their body is wonderful.

They dont need rescuing as they were never separated

[JM]

NC Angle you said

my replies are in red

I just LOVE it when an atheist wants to explain the Bible to me!*L* Does it get any better than this???

You think you know or understand more than they do. Did you say that comment above to reassure yourself that God couldnt possibly show them something you havent seen or provide them with understanding you havent yet grasped?..... Wow something smells funny here.

They were "innocent" in that they were without sin, but they weren't stupid or unlearned. They were the highest creation. Think of them as the 10X version of humankind and the rest of us as the 2.435 version that becomes worse rather than improves.

I disagree, but i do understand why you think that is true, because it helps keep alive your religious illusions

Their cognitive abilities and logic and all those other lofty qualities of human ability were at their peak.

Actually even if a person was to believe 100% in the bible.. what you have just stated there is the makings of your own little fantasy idea concerning them. The bible doesnt state they were any better than todays man.

They chose.

[JM]

Originally Posted by friendly hardline atheist

Hi Debbie,



Thanks for writing up your thoughts. Unfortunately, it doesn't help me think any more reasonable of the concept of original sin. If I still believed in god I'd think everyone probably does a few things that are sinful. Is everyone then sinful? Well yes, the moment they commit that sin they were always bound to commit, and not before. So destined to commit sins in later life perhaps (especially if we're created to so much want to commit what is supposed to be sin, duh). But not born guilty of sin. So none of those excuses of the old-guard christians of this forum who said 'Sure, the drowning of just born babies in the flood was fully justified, because they were tainted by original sin'. That is a totally warped piece of illogic that imo disqualifies those christians from deserving to be listened to on the subject of morality.

greets,
Peter

ps: you became senior member after 100 posts, you just didn't notice for a while.

Hi Peter

yes there are a number of stories that have evolved over the years to provide reason and existence to the idea of Sin and Suffering, Each one is an illusion built upon by the one before it with NEED/Agenda being at the start. Its a view of God which is based upon by our view of our human relationships. In essence we have projected ourselves on to God or the Idea of God if you wish to not consider God being behind everything.

A book that I think you would really enjoy, and would probably only confirm what you have thought for a long time anyway is

Amazon.com: God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question--Why We Suffer: Bart D. Ehrman: Books

Bart does a very good job of explaining from the start of the bible to the end how the idea ( not truth ) of suffering came about coming from God and Sin. He provides a look at the various reasons for it and the various ideas and idiotic reasons that Christianity teaches is the reason for suffering.

I would recommend this book to both believers and non believers though there are many Believers who would have a hard time digesting it, as until a person is willing to suspend their disbelief in the opposing view and lay aside for even a moment their own notions about God, Sin and Suffering they will continue to live and get the same

[JM]

NC Angel you said this in reply to Peter but I would like to comment on it.

My replies are in red

Ok, let me see if I have this straight--if you believed in God, then you could agree that every person sins at some point in their life after they have grown up a bit?

A person can Believe in God and not believe in Sin, I have mentioned this before in a previous post. You believe they cant believe in God without embracing the teaching of Sin and this is because your framework of God is built around Sin and Seperation, all of which for hundreds of years Christianity has not been able to Substantiate even though they have tried to through continually spouting off scriptures or referencing the pain and hurt that people experience in this world

But you wouldn't believe or don't believe that babies are born with a sin nature that dooms them to hell? Do I have that right?

Second, the whole " Grown up bit " is just too funny and actually sad that man has portrayed God as being worse than the worst human action.

Actually I would probably take it as an insult, but alas God is not man and doesnt have all the hang ups of man which the bible Authors over the years have tried to paint God as having.

Then, if so, I too agree that we all sin consciously, by choice, at some point. I do however believe that we are born with that somewhat genetic-like sin nature, thanks to A&E.

A&E lol oh my word give me a break!

Now whether babies/children go to hell if they die young, I would still have to agree with you that they don't.

Oh now your changing the rules are you, determining when and who does or doesnt fall under your view of God and what God has said.... ah the made up stories are becoming even more clearer

What I can't do is point to specific scripture to prove or disprove my point dogmatically.

I could spend a lot of effort here giving proofs I think point in that direction, but I can't be totally dogmatic. (Surprised?)

You can point to illusions, yes that right

My weightiest argument would point to God's attributes of goodness and mercy.

Ah, the irony... I think it would help you to also read " Amazon.com: God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question--Why We Suffer: Bart D. Ehrman: Books

Come back after that and we can rehash this more